Fuel efficient vehicles that are reasonably safe?

[rozett]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It's unfortunate. However, so long as the vast unwashed masses keep buying the 12 mpg SUVs, we will never use our technology to improve fuel mileage. This is even more unfortunate. )</font>

As the owner of one of those 12 mpg SUVs.......

I will be happy to trade my Ford Excursion for a 30 mpg vehicle as soon as someone makes one that will pull my 12k lb. trailer. Since that's not likely to happen anytime soon, I expect to continue to get 12 mpg (14 highway). /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[California]

Rat,

Give us a clue what type of vehicle you are looking for.

Do you commute alone, tow, take kids on multi-day road trips, or just run to the corner grocery once a week. Do you need to impress the neighbors? Will this be the primary or only car? How many miles per year?

Any strong preference for or against European, Japanese, American, Korean, or an 'American' Ford actually built in Mexico or Canada? Need 4 wheel drive?

Would you go out of state to buy a diesel? (None are sold in California). Do you agree with the view that your safety is proportional to weight? Believe what you read in Consumer Reports? (Their annual auto issue just arrived, by the way.)

Everyone is suggesting what we like best - I hope some of these suggestions are on target for you!

 

[AndyM]

I was looking at gas vs. diesel vs. hybrid last summer and put a spreadsheet together of all of my potential candidates.

I put in the fuel mileage of each vehicle, the cost of each vehicle and monthly payment, and the number of miles I drive per year. In the end, I got to see what the total cost of my payments and fuel costs would be each year for each vehicle.

Even though the hybrids used much less fuel, the cost of the car was much more. In the end, I bought the Cavalier and decided to put the $10,000 I saved on my purchase price towards any extra fuel costs I might incur from not buying the Civic hybrid.

 

[aardvark]

If you read my very first post I said a work truck is different. However, the people living in apartments and condos driving around in huge SUVs really don't need an SUV. They just want one for the status.

 

[OkeeDon]

<font color="blue"> What problem did he describe?

Vehicles today get as good of mileage as the older vehicles but put out more power and performance... </font>

How much more mileage and how much less pollution would there be with all the improvements if the performance was the same as in the past? Sure, there are exceptions for pulling a heavy load. I'm looking to get an F350 myself. But, with the cost of operation going up so much, it will actually pay me to get another vehicle for myself when I don't need to pull a heavy trailer, and save a bunch of resources, as well.

The problem is, I can't get a car with good mileage for a reasonable price like I used to. I've had small, fuel efficient cars since 1981, averaging 35 to 45 mpg, and all cost less than $6,000 new. Allowing for inflation, I should be able to get a small, fuel efficent car today for about $9,000, but there are NONE that get the mileage I used to get, except for ridiculously expensive hybrids.

Performance? My son won an autocross championship with a 1300cc Toyota Starlet that got 39 mpg, but was also a pocket rocket. Our Suzuki Swift GT had 100 hp in a 1700# car, and would blow away many of today's performance cars, but still got 40 mpg hwy. They're being successully raced in SCCA road races.

 

[_RaT_]

I am in the market for a car like the Subaru Outback. Basically replacing a Ford Windstar with something semi similar in that I could put our kid in it, our two dogs, my wife and I and the biggest change is AWD or 4WD so we don't need to chain up going to our cabin. I checked into the Subaru website on the Outback. They offer a non turbo 4 cylinder with OK mpg but the power I would question. It might be fine, I don't need a bunch of power, I just would like to be able to pass the trucks pulling the Donner Summit grade in a reasonable amount of time. I am not partial to any brand, make or country of origin. I would say that if it comes down to two similar products and one is made in the US and the other elsewhere, then it would be the US brand. I have had a used 1986 Subaru in the past. It was great but no power up the hill. I will buy used and have yet to ever buy a car new. Our Windstar is showing issues and I would like to get rid of it before we are nickel and dime'd.

 

[Boondox]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am in the market for a car like the Subaru Outback. Basically replacing a Ford Windstar with something semi similar in that I could put our kid in it, our two dogs, my wife and I and the biggest change is AWD or 4WD so we don't need to chain up going to our cabin. I checked into the Subaru website on the Outback. They offer a non turbo 4 cylinder with OK mpg but the power I would question. It might be fine, I don't need a bunch of power, I just would like to be able to pass the trucks pulling the Donner Summit grade in a reasonable amount of time. I am not partial to any brand, make or country of origin. I would say that if it comes down to two similar products and one is made in the US and the other elsewhere, then it would be the US brand. I have had a used 1986 Subaru in the past. It was great but no power up the hill. I will buy used and have yet to ever buy a car new. Our Windstar is showing issues and I would like to get rid of it before we are nickel and dime'd. )</font>

Rat -- We have an Outback and absolutely love it, but you're never going to be getting 30mpg with it. 24 in mixed mostly rural driving is more like it. That said, the car is amazing! In fair weather it handles twisty back roads like a champion. In foul weather, well, let's just say there were times when the conditions were so bad other cars were sliding off the road all around me, and the Subaru got me home with not even a hint of slippage. Every time we think about trading it for a Honda Civic that gets 38mpg another ice storm comes along and convinces us that -- where we live -- we need at least one AWD vehicle in our family.

Power? Heck, it's a station wagon! But we've never had trouble passing rubbernecking tourists or the occasional log truck on a long uphill. Performance in mud has been dependable. We've never been stuck in mud season but with no low range you have to pay attention to the power band lest the vehicle lug down. The nose sticks out too far for off roading, contrary to some of their earlier commercials. Reliability has been rock solid until recently. We lost a fog light to a rock, and the front end seems prone to chip damage from flying pebbles. When we turned 90k miles the check engine light came on; we overrode the code for a bad catalyst and are waiting to see if it comes back on. That would be $750 for a replacement. Also the center differential is showing signs of failing, which would be another $800. Our mechanic says the rest of the vehicle should last another 100k easily.

Plenty of room inside for the wife and I, and our six golden retrievers...or two goldens and a load of groceries, a couple bales of straw, or what have you.

I have a single complaint about the design of the car, and I've noticed the 2005s have the same issue. There is not much clearance between the tires and the wheel wells, so ice or mud collects there in cold weather and the tires scrape the ice in turns or over bumps. When that happens it sounds like I'm driving a belt sander!

Hope this helps. Pete

 

[Robert_in_NY]

There is more to performance then speed. When I talk about performance I am talking about speed and hauling power. You can take a lawnmower engine and rig it up to run a car but you are not going to pull anything with it or haul much with it and if you do start loading those small engines your MPG goes down in a hurry because they are not designed for lugging.

Cars cost more today because of all the requirements that are needed to be put in them. New cars need to meet strict standards for emissions and safety. Once you meet those you need to have the car attract buyers. Very few people want to buy a Ford Aspire or Chevy/Geo Metro anymore. If the sales are not there then how can you expect the car companies to sink millions into designing a new car that won't get many sales? Until the consumers start asking for a small car with great milage, you won't get one that is affordable.

The Suzuki Swift GT gets the same milage as the recent Ford Escort ZX2 that sold in the $9k range and Ford dropped the ZX2 because of lack of sales. Currently there are a few cars that should meet your requirements. The Honda Civic gets in the mid 30's and the hybrid version gets almost 50mpg. The Toyota Corolla and Echo get in the mid to high 30's and Chevy has the Aveo and Cavalier that get in the high 20's to mid 30's for a domestic. Ford has the Focus that gets similar to the Chevy's. There are a lot of cars to choose from still but you don't hear about them because people don't buy them.

Suzuki Swift Gas Mileage

 

[sneaky_pete]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ...people living in apartments and condos driving around in huge SUVs really don't need an SUV. They just want one for the status.)</font>

No one needs an SUV. We've been driving one or another for the last 15 years because our entire family (5 kids + foster children every now and then) can fit in one vehicle, but my great-grandfather had 13 kids and got by just fine without one. In this country, with our amazing standard of living, it's all about choice. People with leisure time and money are going to make some choices that might be bad for everyone else just because they can - it's human nature.

 

[sneaky_pete]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I was looking at gas vs. diesel vs. hybrid last summer and put a spreadsheet together of all of my potential candidates.

I put in the fuel mileage of each vehicle, the cost of each vehicle and monthly payment, and the number of miles I drive per year. In the end, I got to see what the total cost of my payments and fuel costs would be each year for each vehicle.

Even though the hybrids used much less fuel, the cost of the car was much more. In the end, I bought the Cavalier and decided to put the $10,000 I saved on my purchase price towards any extra fuel costs I might incur from not buying the Civic hybrid.)</font>

I went through the exact same exercise when we moved out where we are now and my commute distance tripled, and (surprise, surprise) the numbers show that it would take forever to recoup the initial investment of a hybrid vs. continuing to drive my 14 mpg but paid-for 14-year-old truck.

Beyond that, my solution was two-fold: ride my motorcycle to town whenever practical (50+ mpg), and I quit my job in the city and now consult from an office in my shop building.

 

[OkeeDon]

Wow, either the .gov got it wrong as usual, or we had one heck of a Wednesday car, because our Suzuki saw hwy mileage as high as 43 - 44 mpg. City mileage was in the 30's because it was so dang fast it was hard to keep my foot out of it.

The Escort was a terrible car. I've driven them and they just plain are bad. We now have a Focus ZX3 with the Zetec engine. It's the best we could do and still have a hatchback -- 30 mpg or so for $12K new. My wife is a home health physical therapist who often carries walkers and such to her patients, so a hatchback is a necessity. All of our small cars since '81 were hatchbacks -- '81 Toyota Starlet, '83 Toyota Starlet, '86 Dodge Colt, '90 Suzuki Swift, '93 Ford Festiva, '00 Focus ZX3. Talk about hauling -- the Festiva was the smallest, but I took out the back seat and transported a kitchen table and 4 chairs, along with our normal luggage, from Florida to North Carolina.

I suppose everyone has their definition of performance, but I wouldn't put hauling into the label of performance. To me, hauling comes under the heading of utility, and utility is usually gained at the expense of performance. To me, speed is also the lesser factor in performance; handling is much more important, especially when it comes to safety. There is a simple rule that can be proved by asking anyone who has ever raced cars -- the lighter the car, the better it handles. Very few people haul something every time they use the vehicle.

<font color="blue"> "Very few people want to buy a Ford Aspire or Chevy/Geo Metro anymore." </font>
And, as I said above, that describes the problem. Of course, the Festiva was a better car than the Aspire that replaced it (even though both were made by Kia), and we chose a Swift over a Metro, even though both were made by Suzuki. Even I have my limits -- the 3 cylinder Metro was not worth the extra 8 mpg or so over the Swift.

We currently have the 5 speed Focus ZX3, a Windstar that's only used when we have to carry more than the two of us, a V6 5 speed Dakota, and a Pace Arrow motor home that gets about 6 mpg. I need a truck that can pull 12K lbs. to pull my dump trailer, and we're planning to get a 5th wheel RV instead of the motor home because we'll get better mileage from the tow vehicle. So, I'm planning on trading the Dakota and the Windstar on an F350 crew cab diesel dually. The wife will continue to drive the ZX3 until it breaks, or maybe get a MINI. I surely don't want to drive the big dually for trips when I'm not pulling a trailer, so I'll be looking for another small car. They keep talking about finally importing the Mercedes Smart, and that might be about perfect.

 

[hazmat]

<font color="blue">I will be happy to trade my Ford Excursion for a 30 mpg vehicle as soon as someone makes one that will pull my 12k lb. trailer. Since that's not likely to happen anytime soon, I expect to continue to get 12 mpg (14 highway). </font>

You've got a GCVW of ~20,000# (10 tons) - heavy truck guidelines are 6-10HP per ton minimum power. If you didn't mind crawling up grades with the semi trucks - you could tow your 12,000# with 60-100HP. I'm sure you'd do much better than 12mpg with a 100HP 4 cyl turbo diesel - but do you want to hang in the slow lane with grandma?

 

[California]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I just would like to be able to pass the trucks pulling the Donner Summit grade in a reasonable amount of time. I am not partial to any brand, make or country of origin. I would say that if it comes down to two similar products and one is made in the US -_RaT_)</font>

An Outback is surprisingly good at that.

On the long hard upgrades from Drum Forebay up to Blue Canyon, or westbound from Truckee to the summit, the 4 cylinder with a carload of people will easily get back up over 70 after slowing to 40 for a traffic jam. This is the most severe test that is relevant to my use. (For those of you in the rest of the country - these are something like 2000 ft elevation gain in 4 miles.) If you want to be a yahoo and pass everyone at 80+ using the truck lane I've seen that as well.

They are assembled in Indiana or somewhere around there.

I have to agree with the other poster on mileage - for some reason the Outbacks encourage spirited driving and are not likely to get over 24 mpg. I get the best mileage when towing at constant speed.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I don't see people not wanting small cars as a problem. Cars are a choice and a small car does not suit a lot of people. Even you said you have multiple vehicles so it comes down to this. If most people need something more in the lines of a minivan or SUV then they won't buy a little car regardless of fuel efficiency. Since most small cars are not really family cars they don't sell. They don't sell so car companies concentrate on improving the vehicles they do sell. What all of us can only hope for is that car companies start improving the current SUV's to higher fuel effiecent vehicles. If you can start getting 30-35mpg out of a Explorer then that will help a lot. Then that technology will snowball to the smaller cars and you will start seeing 40-50mpg cars again. I have to look but Ford did design a car (I think based off the Taurus or Contour) that got 60 mpg. This was back in the mid 90's when fuel was still somewhat cheap. I think if fuel prices keep going up like they are you will see a huge change in the SUV becoming more efficient to attract buyers again who were scared away from high fuel prices.

I do agree though, the Escort ZX2 is a crappy car but it only cost $9k so you knew Ford was going to cut every corner they could. My sister has one and so far the only problem she had was with the fan for the heater and the low profile tires constantly need air. But the overall quality of the car is very low.

What I would like to see is more European cars imported. Heck, Ford and Chevy have great cars that are only available in Austraila and Europe that would sell well here but we can't get them. I wonder if it has something to do with politics or some emissions standards.

As for performance, if you drive a car all your life then performance means speed and handling. If you drive trucks all your life then performance means speed and power while towing 5 ton behind you, performance means stopping that load in a hurry without trouble and performance means handling that weight without even knowing it is back there. As you know from looking at trucks now there is a lot involved in a Super Duty pickup. You design each truck to perform like you want. You can get by with the 5.4 but the extra power of the 6.0 is nice (even with the $5k extra to get it). So performance is available in all aspects of all vehicles. To be honest though, I never looked at fuel efficient vehicles as performance cars. They have always been the cheapest car you could get and get the most out of.

One of the reasons you see so many small cars that get great performance from all points in Europe is because of the high cost of fuel there. The car companies changed with the economy and the buyers wanted cars that performed great and got great gas mileage. In the US fuel has always been cheap so we wanted cars that just plain performed. That is what we got. Now with fuel prices going up you will see more European cars being brought over and US makers start building more fuel efficient engines for the US market. It will take some time though.