Fixed PTO Problem - not what I expected

[woodlandfarms]

So, I ordered a PTO Actuator from PT. It cost $179. This is just the magnet, not the valve.

Well, it did not work. I then went and bought a hydraulic guage set up ($50 so far). It showed the proper pressure...

So, I went back to the valve. Took it into the shop. Called the wife (she has glasses, I refuse to buy any). She says well stupid there is a bunch of junk in the valve.

It looks like the insides of my hoses have been breaking down. There was some little plastic parts black with striations that look like wire mesh. These parts are maybe 1/16 to 1/8 inch. Well they had jammed themselves up into the valve. It took some picture hanging wire, and some pliers, some carb cleaner and a lot of patience and now my valve is working... Woo Hoo.

 

[Tig]

Glad you got it sorted out. Thanks for posting the fix info for those of use who may have this problem in the future.

 

[Marks481]

good to know you finally solved your problem. I think that if it took much longer, that you would have replaced everything on your tractor.

Contamination in a hydraulic system can be a real PIA to solve (try dealing with a 500 gallon system with about 50 solenoid valves that has ingested about 50 gallons of seawater....)... frequently you spend all your time troubleshooting symptoms instead of solving the original problem.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So, before I go out to repair my center section I ask this.

Everyone here is deep in discussion about filtering down to 2 microns, but I have chunks to stuff in my system and it does not raise much of an issue (ie Terry said the filters will catch the stuff eventually). I guess big peices like this can only really mess up the valve and not much more? The motors and pumps will just push this through and the 10 micron stuff is just a wear issue?

 

[J_J]

So, I ordered a PTO Actuator from PT. It cost $179. This is just the magnet, not the valve.

Well, it did not work. I then went and bought a hydraulic guage set up ($50 so far). It showed the proper pressure...

So, I went back to the valve. Took it into the shop. Called the wife (she has glasses, I refuse to buy any). She says well stupid there is a bunch of junk in the valve.

It looks like the insides of my hoses have been breaking down. There was some little plastic parts black with striations that look like wire mesh. These parts are maybe 1/16 to 1/8 inch. Well they had jammed themselves up into the valve. It took some picture hanging wire, and some pliers, some carb cleaner and a lot of patience and now my valve is working... Woo Hoo.

Carl,

This kind or situation will continue until you replace all the old hoses. If you have ever looked at the bottom of your hydraulic tank, you should see a good bit of the old hoses, and other junk. All the junk from the return circuits will come back to the tank and float around until vibration and settlement will occur, at the same time, the other pumps are using what ever is at the suction ports of the tank. PT knows better, they just will not so anything about it. On most of the PT's, the only thing that is filtered is the charge oil going to the tram pump. They should have put a high pressure filter in each of the pump circuits. If those hoses are cracking on the out side, they are breaking down on the inside, and every time they flex during use or handling, separation will occur. The other guy that bought the two units, and sold you one, is he having the same trouble? Seems like you had PT refurbish your PT, is that correct?

 

[toy]

So, before I go out to repair my center section I ask this.

Everyone here is deep in discussion about filtering down to 2 microns, but I have chunks to stuff in my system and it does not raise much of an issue (ie Terry said the filters will catch the stuff eventually). I guess big peices like this can only really mess up the valve and not much more? The motors and pumps will just push this through and the 10 micron stuff is just a wear issue?

You should have most all of your old hoses replaced by now right? If not I think like JJ , I would try to get all of the old hoses replaced couldn't be too many more of them is there. If I couldn't afford to do a complete hydroulic oil change out I think I would try to figure out a way to pump out the oil,being as clean as possible with it and I would strain the oil to get as much of the big stuff out of it as possible keeping the excavated oil in a clean container and then I beleive I would see if I couldn't clean the tank out and get all the junk out of it. With a lot of junk circulating in your system as you are describing it can't be good on your pumps, valves and cylinders. If when you are opperating your machine and a releif valve was to open up and a peice of that got caught in the valve with it partially open then the functions that that releif valve protected would seem sluggish and weak. Stuff in your hydroulics floating around can continuiously be giving you ghost symptoms[try to lift your bucket one time and it will be slow then the next time try it and it will work fine. Those kind of problems is a pain to try to figure out.

 

[toy]

Woodlandfarms one of those little diaphram pumps like people use to pump kerosene out of the can into a kerosene heater would probably work as a cheap pump.

 

[ponytug]

Carl,
The 2 micron debris that people worry about is 2 micron debris hard enough to scratch steel, seal surfaces, and bearings. I suspect that your debris is from dead and dying hoses, which means it is hard rubber. Probably less worrisome than sand, but underneath that rubber is going to be steel wire mesh. When it start rusting, or fatiguing off, you'll have debris hard enough to cause wear in critical areas.

I'd get moving on replacing the rest of the hoses, and then 2 micron filter the whole tank, run the tractor for a bit, and do it again.

J.J. Are you thinking of suction filters for all pumps? Or pressure side filters for all the pumps?

All the best,

Peter

 

[woodlandfarms]

I have 3 major hoses left, The PTO Return (hard as a rock) the PTO Relieve (Hard as a rock) and the 1" source... I may have some minor ones as well. I saw a wet hose in the center section yesterday....

The funny thing is that I am not that frustrated by the hoses anymore.

 

[J_J]

Peter,

If I had the resources, I would put suction filters before the pumps, and high pressure filters before the valve and hyd motor, or accessories . A good oil analysis is also another way of protecting your hydraulic system.

Filter, filter, filter, and try to eliminate most of the heat from the hydraulic fluid.

 

[J_J]

Carl,
The 2 micron debris that people worry about is 2 micron debris hard enough to scratch steel, seal surfaces, and bearings. I suspect that your debris is from dead and dying hoses, which means it is hard rubber. Probably less worrisome than sand, but underneath that rubber is going to be steel wire mesh. When it start rusting, or fatiguing off, you'll have debris hard enough to cause wear in critical areas.

I'd get moving on replacing the rest of the hoses, and then 2 micron filter the whole tank, run the tractor for a bit, and do it again.

J.J. Are you thinking of suction filters for all pumps? Or pressure side filters for all the pumps?

All the best,

Peter

Peter,

Those small micron particles are the ones that causes wear on most surfaces of pumps valves, and motors. Pt [half assed] only put the filter on the charge pump, which is only pumping about 10 % of the pump capacity, and that is assuming that you are using the wheel motors. It would be interesting to put a gpm gage in the tram circuit to figure how much fluid is being filtered. It would take a while to filter the contents of the tank, if you were driving slow. The PTO pump and the steering and lift pump is just circulating fluid from the tank around the circuit and back to tank. From this you could say that the tram pump gets the most clean fluid, and that is only filtered to around 10 microns. These external filters, that some people have built, some as small as 1 micron. is the best way to go, and that should be at least weekly. Correct viscosity is important and is usually dictated by the area that one operates.

I think Carl had mentioned about some wire debris in his PTO valve, so that is a positive indication that the hoses are breaking down. Of course you have to wonder if the hose technician cleaned out the hose after he cuts through the rubber and wire to make up a hose. Sometimes you can see them make up a hose and sometimes not.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Just to clarify, I did not find any wire debris, just the plastic liner. It was so hard,and the way it was broken, it must have come / be coming from old hoses. Now, I used the old stiff hoses to pull the new hoses through. I never tthought it out, but it is quite possible that oil with broken bits got into the new hoses.

I have watched my hoses getting built from the pro shop and they do it right, they use those mice thingys. I am not so sure about NAPA but they no longer build my hoses....

 

[Wayne County Hose]

The inner liner of your most common hydraulic hoses is nitrile. The covers are neoprene. 2 different materials, one on the outside exposed to the elements, the other on the inside bathed in oil. I've been paying attention to the old hoses that come into my shop for replacement since Carl and I had a discussion about this some time ago. I have not seen any brittle inner liners. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that I haven't seen any.

I would be careful about adding extra filtering, especially 2 micron filters. Make certain that the filter block has a bypass valve. Remember, the finer the filtering, the more restriction. I would get a good filter block and filter rated for the aux. hydraulics flow and hook into the hydraulics kind of like a kidney machine. Every 50 hours or so, with the machine running to circulate oil, hook up the filter and let her go for a half hour or so.