Extending well feed to a second structure

[rbstern]

We are building a home on our rural property. There is already a vacation house on the property. That structure is going to become an office/workshop for our business, and a guest house.

We have a 1" PVC line coming in from the well pump to a pressure tank (44 gallons, I believe). The tank is in the basement of the existing house. The pressure side of the 1" line then goes to a whole house filter, reducing to 3/4". Pressure settings on the tank are 40/60psi. All works well, with decent water quality and good pressure at the existing fixtures.

Most of what I've read about serving multiple structures from a single well has basically said to treat the additional building as a fixture of the existing pressure tank. So, my current plan is to tee the 1" line after the pressure tank, and run a 1" line through the basement wall, trenched about 150' toward the new house site, where I'll terminate in a valve box with a cutoff valve. It's a slight downhill slope to the new house site. Perhaps a 5' to 6' drop from where the pressure tank sits in the basement of the first house.

Questions:

- What pipe to use for the supply line to the new home? Keep it rigid PVC? Pex or HPDE inside a PVC conduit? The soil is clay and does have rocks, so I don't think direct bury of a flexible pipe is ideal.

- Any reason I can't run a direct bury cat6 ethernet or fiber optic cable in the same trench? The two houses will be networked and sharing a broadband feed, and I prefer not to do that wirelessly.

- Our frost line (north Georgia) is somewhere between 6 and 10". I was planning on trenching to 18". Anything else to consider about that? Will that be ok if a heavy vehicle goes across the filled trench? I suspect all kinds of heavy vehicles will be driving all over the property during construction. I could route them to the build site in way that doesn't cross the water line tench, but the water line trench would still need to be able support normal vehicle/driveway traffic over the long term.

- At the valve box for a line servicing the new house, is PVC ok? Does it need any special consideration for protection from freezing, if the line feeding it is below the frost line, right up to the box?

- I suspect the power company will dig a parallel trench for 240v service, within about 10' of my water trench. Other than clearly marking my trench, any issues?

 

[Passattdi]

Whatever you run you need "cushion", be it sand or crusher dust. That will protect the burried pipe, regardless if rigid or flex. Without it you will inevitably have a puncture. Now being in Georgia, you don't or shouldn't deal with frost, but ground still settles. That being said, flexable is better. I ran conduit to my shop with the intention of electric, water and some type of fuel. Electric is done, the other conduits still empty. Prolly over kill for your area, but.... and it is all surrounded by crusher dust. No leaks and we are going into our 4th winter on our installation.

 

[rbstern]

Whatever you run you need "cushion", be it sand or crusher dust. That will protect the burried pipe, regardless if rigid or flex. Without it you will inevitably have a puncture. Now being in Georgia, you don't or shouldn't deal with frost, but ground still settles. That being said, flexable is better. I ran conduit to my shop with the intention of electric, water and some type of fuel. Electric is done, the other conduits still empty. Prolly over kill for your area, but.... and it is all surrounded by crusher dust. No leaks and we are going into our 4th winter on our installation.

You're saying flexible if properly bedded with sand or crusher dust. Is it better because it's easier to install? More durable?

 

[TheMan419]

Since you are digging a trench anyway I would drop a conduit in there as well for any future cables. Not just the one you know you want to run now.

 

[Passattdi]

You're saying flexible if properly bedded with sand or crusher dust. Is it better because it's easier to install? More durable?

Pex is just as durable as copper. PVC, if stressed will fracture. Pex will give. Conduit and Pex is best of both worlds. Crusher dust makes it pretty much bulletproof.

 

[rbstern]

Since you are digging a trench anyway I would drop a conduit in there as well for any future cables. Not just the one you know you want to run now.

Good point. I could run a cat 6 initially, and if I'm not happy with the performance, I could pull a fiber optic cable.

 

[rbstern]

Pex is just as durable as copper. PVC, if stressed will fracture. Pex will give. Conduit and Pex is best of both worlds. Crusher dust makes it pretty much bulletproof.

Any reason why I would choose Pex over less expensive HPDE, which seems to be very popular for potable water supply deliver from well or meter to home?

 

[robstaples]

I tee tapped my well head and ran in two directions to existing home (with outside faucets, get to this later) and to a new building where there is iron remover and water softener. In the new trench, like yours, I ran an additional pipe between the two locations. Raw water goes to new building and the precessed water back to home in new pipe. Raw water to home only for existing outside faucets. I put the main well pressure tank in new building and a second tank on the precessed water in the house. Duel pressure tanks supply the instantaneous demand....so to speak. Good short term response without relying on connected pipe diameter.
I now don't have to carry bags of salt down the stairs to where the original water softener was.
With that trench open, like others have said, I'd add a 2" + poly pipe with 4 numbered pull ropes for future connections. Pulling thru with existing cables is hard. Sometimes you have to remove existing wire, bundle all, and then pull one bundle.

 

[RNeumann]

HDPE is best. Pex isn't designed for outdoor use- don't use it outside! The proper HDPE doesn't need, nor should it have conduit.

1" at 18" is fine if the frost line is 6". The typical is 1' below frost line and deeper under driveways or other locations where the snow is packed down. The packing tends to drive the frost down.

Don't direct bury low voltage. Put in a 1" conduit.

The conduit and water line can go in the same trench. The typical 1' trench would work fine. HDPE water line at 18" on one side of the trench. Then add 6" soil and place the conduit on the other side of the trench. Then fill trench.

Run a tracer wire with the water line so it can be located before the electrical goes in.

Skip the valve box. Have a shut off on the new line at the well. Go directly into the new building basement and keep the shutoff inside the new basement. No need for an outside shutoff where it freezes.

Unless you are having a second electrical meter set the electrical company won't be doing the 240v wiring. An electrician will. It is typical to have all the underground done at once. One tractor is onsite and would dig all the needed trenches and place the needed conduit, water lines etc.

 

[rbstern]

I tee tapped my well head and ran in two directions to existing home (with outside faucets, get to this later) and to a new building where there is iron remover and water softener. In the new trench, like yours, I ran an additional pipe between the two locations. Raw water goes to new building and the precessed water back to home in new pipe. Raw water to home only for existing outside faucets. I put the main well pressure tank in new building and a second tank on the precessed water in the house. Duel pressure tanks supply the instantaneous demand....so to speak. Good short term response without relying on connected pipe diameter.
I now don't have to carry bags of salt down the stairs to where the original water softener was.
With that trench open, like others have said, I'd add a 2" + poly pipe with 4 numbered pull ropes for future connections. Pulling thru with existing cables is hard. Sometimes you have to remove existing wire, bundle all, and then pull one bundle.

Rob, where is the pressure switch in your setup?

 

[rbstern]

HDPE is best. Pex isn't designed for outdoor use- don't use it outside! The proper HDPE doesn't need, nor should it have conduit.

I wrote HPDE, but I'm not sure I didn't mean plain old, potable safe polyethylene..

1" at 18" is fine if the frost line is 6". The typical is 1' below frost line and deeper under driveways or other locations where the snow is packed down. The packing tends to drive the frost down.

Don't direct bury low voltage. Put in a 1" conduit.

The conduit and water line can go in the same trench. The typical 1' trench would work fine. HDPE water line at 18" on one side of the trench. Then add 6" soil and place the conduit on the other side of the trench. Then fill trench.

Run a tracer wire with the water line so it can be located before the electrical goes in.

Skip the valve box. Have a shut off on the new line at the well. Go directly into the new building basement and keep the shutoff inside the new basement. No need for an outside shutoff where it freezes.

Key thing here is, if something goes wrong inside the new house, without a nearby shutoff in the yard next to the house, the next place to cut the water is at the tank inside the basement of the existing house. And that house could be locked, which means running and finding the key. The well itself doesn't have a cutoff, and it's another several hundred yards away, and it's covered with a heavy manhole cover (I think there is a switch box for power in there, but I can't recall).

A lot of water could get pumped into the basement of the new house before the water got shut off.

There's a community well house across the street from us, and my neighbor got a feed from them when he built his house a couple of years ago. The well company installed a cutoff valve in a box outside the build site. Hence, my thought of doing the same. It's also what I'm used to for city water setups.

Unless you are having a second electrical meter set the electrical company won't be doing the 240v wiring. An electrician will. It is typical to have all the underground done at once. One tractor is onsite and would dig all the needed trenches and place the needed conduit, water lines etc.

There will be a second meter. Power company will trench and put in a temp power pole at the second home site. Have to meet with one of their engineers to get the specifics of how they'll do it.

 

[rbstern]

Really appreciate all the helpful comments. Keep 'em coming, if you've got more.

 

[RNeumann]

It's HDPE. This is the stuff you want-

https://www.hdpesupply.com/1-ips-sdr11-pe4710-black-hdpe-pipe-200-coil/

About $200 delivered. My local wholesaler is about the same. I socket fuse (with proper tools) but the mechanical fittings are fine- just more money.

 

[RNeumann]

Seems to be some general confusion about the well etc. If it's a standard submersible pump in the well the pressure switch is always in the same place. Well pump to pressure switch to pressure tank. No valve between the pump and pressure switch-ever. After the pressure tank the water is treated/softened. From there send it wherever you want- including the new structure. One point to pump, pressure tank and treat the water.

The valve explanation makes little sense but it will work that way if the valve is buried properly to prevent freezing. Those type of valves are set with a riser and require a key to open and close.

In warm climates yes they put a valve outside. In cold climates, where you are getting municipal water, they have a valve at the property edge and in the basement. The valve at the property would take a key. The meter and shutoff to the house is in the basement or crawl space to protect it from freezing. With a domestic well on the property the shutoff is with the pump controller- either inside the structure or pump house.

Folks regularly kill power to the well to shut off the flow of water or as prevention before leaving on vacation.

 

[rbstern]

Seems to be some general confusion about the well etc. If it's a standard submersible pump in the well the pressure switch is always in the same place. Well pump to pressure switch to pressure tank. No valve between the pump and pressure switch-ever. After the pressure tank the water is treated/softened. From there send it wherever you want- including the new structure. One point to pump, pressure tank and treat the water.

No confusion on any of that. The original house has the tank, the pressure switch, and a valve on the output side of the pressure tank. That valve would work to cut supply to both structures, but it may be temporarily inaccessible in an emergency.

The valve explanation makes little sense but it will work that way if the valve is buried properly to prevent freezing. Those type of valves are set with a riser and require a key to open and close.

In warm climates yes they put a valve outside. In cold climates, where you are getting municipal water, they have a valve at the property edge and in the basement. The valve at the property would take a key. The meter and shutoff to the house is in the basement or crawl space to protect it from freezing. With a domestic well on the property the shutoff is with the pump controller- either inside the structure or pump house.

Folks regularly kill power to the well to shut off the flow of water or as prevention before leaving on vacation.

I think we're what you'd call a warm climate. What I described is typical here.

Also, for our primary home, where we have municipal water, no key required. It has a lockable valve (padlock rings), but the county water policy seems to be no lock. Regardless, I have a valve on my side of the meter.

Agreed about killing well power in a vacation home. Used to think it was enough to kill the pressure side of the tank. Now I see otherwise.

 

[robstaples]

Rob, where is the pressure switch in your setup?

I planned to have the switch next to the new pressure tank in new location. During startup I found I had failed to install wire where I needed it. It will take digging 6 feet down thru land scape and next to water line to fix so I'm running the pressure switch in the house and the pressure tank in the new building. Yes , risks of closed valves and overpressuring pit less adapter, but not a safety issure. I don't like the situation, but I think I risk a lot of trouble to get to a typical installation. I plan on solid documentation of the layout. System performs fine.

 

[turnkey4099]

Since you are digging a trench anyway I would drop a conduit in there as well for any future cables. Not just the one you know you want to run now.

I would also put it in deeper, at least 24" due to it crossing the driveway. Deeper is better.

 

[LouNY]

I would use heavy wall black plastic with brass or Stainless barbed to pipe adapters with heavy duty SS saddle clamps, I would also use a second pressure tank at the second location. The deeper the better, a couple of feet anyways,I would run another black plastic along side of to use for low voltage wiring, it may not be "code" but with no glue joints itsmuch easier to pull wires through. Just pack a little duct seal in the end to close it off. Also install valves at both ends, it's hard to have to many shutoffs.

 

[PILOON]

In my area we use Poly B (a blue poly Buterate) generally for wells.
It is also allowed (with proper fittings) for hook up to city mains.
The rating is in the 150 PSI range and the walls are .250, tough stuff!
Sand is the preferred burial method.

I have used manifolds to have one pump supply up to 4 houses, poly B for lines with one 'bladder tank' for all 4.
I had the pump deliver to the tank under 'pump pressure' and manifold down stream from there.
All brass fittings and dual clamps on all barbed joints.
I like a tad of heat B4 inserting the barbed fittings so as to allow the barbs to get a good grip.

I have observed that while the best of clamps do not rust out the screws that tighten the clamps do corrode as they are plain steel and not stainless.

On any system that I serviced that suffered from poor pressure and or flow I generally found that somebody cheated and used a plain steel (even galv) fitting and that fitting often rusted to the point of having barely a 1/4" opening left.
That one steel fitting can be the downfall of an entire system.

And for your other needs add a 2" plain (cheap) black poly line buried in the same trench.
Withe your vacuum cleaner you can blow or suck a 'mouse' and cord to pull any electrical or communication lines at a later date.

A 'mouse' is a ball of cotton that pulls a twine* that later pulls a decent cord that in turn can pull all sorts of electrics or data lines.
I have 'moused' with both vacuum and air pressure with vacuum being the preferred method.
*fishing line works well.

 

[Egon]

Plumbing up the exhaust of an engine will also work when no other methods are available.