Estimate of my Timber - Forester

[johnnyringo]

I have 80 acres that I wan't to have logged. I first took a bid from a logging company that offered a lump sum of $18,600. Everyone I talked and posters on the board strongly urged me to get a forester to manage the sale. I called one and he came out and did a cruise. $400.00 dollars later.........

He said my timber was worth about 11-12K.??? Both he and the logging company said they would take nothing smaller than 14 inch trees.

Now I am confused on what to do. I realize there are differences in estimates especially when it comes to walking through the woods and scanning the trees. But I was expecting the foresters estimate to be at or above the logging companies.

One factor to consider is that the logging company did their cruise about last August. Has the market changed since then?

The forester listed the logs at being sold at $16.00 per ton for red and white oak logs. Misc logs at $12.00 per ton and minilogs at $6.00 per ton. His actual estimate of everything was 17K but that was a clearcut price. His recommendation of taking 14 inch and larger came out to the 2/3 of the total which is 11-12K

It was kind of a let down. Now I have no clue what to do? Did the loggers overshoot? Did the forester undershoot? Is this common to have such differences in estimates. I would have expected the price estimates to be exactly the opposite. Its like an investor with a profit motive wanting to buy my house to make money and then I get an appraiser with my interest in mind and he comes in way under the profit motive guy????

I'm confused. Any guidance is appreciated

 

[MLinOleMiss]

Do not agree to a lump sum sale, if you are dead set on selling, sell by weight only and make the logging company present you with every weight receipt and keep up with the tonnage yourself.
Did you contact a consulting forester or just a registered forester? Usually a consulting forester does not charge for a preliminary cruise of land and takes a percentage of the overall sale price.
The prices that you were quoted seem to be extremely low to me. I'm from Mississippi and Katrina put about $1.2 billion worth of timber on the ground and prices are still up. Red and white oak are about $500 per 1000 board feet and other saw timber is about $38 a ton. I don't know that the prices would vary all that much, but I could be wrong. Hope this helps.

 

[EddieWalker]

Get multiple bids!!!

Loggers are about as bad as it gets for honesty and reliablity. The more you look into it, the worse it gets, especially on actually paying you.

One trick is to offer a high price for your timber to get the job, but after it's cut and hauled off, to come back and tell you that he estimate was off, or to use one of many excuses at their disposal to tell you why you are getting less than you expected.

The advantage of the forester is he'll handle your payment and get your money for you.

This is what I've been told and from trying to get my land logged and giving up, has led me to believe.

Another thing to consider is cleanup after they are gone. Stumps, limbs and discarded or destroyed trees will litter your land. Many people feel that if they can get their land cleaned up for what they made on the timber sale, they've done good. Sometimes it costs more to clean it up than you make.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[dmccarty]

JR,

The market could have changed. I know in some markets they use the per ton to measure the trees but when I timbered we went by 1000 board feet or MBF. Now there are more than one way to measure the MBF, such as the International or Doyle rule, so one has to compare apples to apples. Being measure by the ton is strange to me for lumber quality timber. Maybe some one out your way on TBN will provide more info on this.

Now, my forester had a low number but it was higher than I expected. We also had a closed bid auction that the forester managed. The loggers had to bid on the timber. Highest bidder wins. In my case the forester got a cut of the timber sale, 10%. I might have gotten him for a lower percentage but for us it worked. For 10% he managed the sale, did the cruise, and managed the timbering.

DUH! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif You are in OK. Yes the market did change. There was this little thing called Katrina. Katrina wiped out huge amounts of timber and they have been sawing lumber down there as fast as possible before it rots and stains. My guess is that you are close enough to the TX and LA to affect the timber market in your area. NC has a 800 number to call that will give you the last quarter average price on timber. Maybe OK has something similar. Try your local state forester. I would certainly think they would know if there was an OK 800 number as well if timber prices had been depressed because of a surplus of Katrina lumber.

If this is the case I think you are going to have to wait a year or two to get a better price on your timber.

Later,
Dan

 

[Jstpssng]

I'd be asking both sources how they came up with their prices.
I'd also ask both parties for references; and call those people to find out their experiences and opinions. Also, contact your State Forestry Department ; they can provide you with unbiased assistance and advice.

 

[Pilot]

I am a retired forester, having spent my entire career in the northwest and mostly working for the feds so I know little or nothing about Oklahoma timber. Here are some notes that may be helpful. If you hire a logger on a percentage basis, he will be working to get the most money for you and himself. In spite of all the stories, some loggers are as honest as you are and the challenge is finding them. And just because Joe down the road used Rip'nTear Logging and said they were OK, don't believe it until you have checked some more, because Joe may not know he got took. Do track the loads, however, and make sure you get copies of all the load tickets.

Some of the bad rep that loggers get is just because some are more resourceful than others. One may have markets for every little stick, while the second one feels only the good stuff is worth messing with. We had a guy here that marketed cedar rounds--pieces cut from a log about 5" thick that he sold to folks for landscaping; they used them for stepping stones. My logger took all the cull logs and sold them to a firwood cutter. On Forest Service sales, we could have two almost identical stands of timber logged by 2 different loggers and the cut volumes might be 25% different, just because of how aggressive one logger was in getting out every stick he could market.

In Douglas-fir country, selective cutting is a bad way to go (except for thinning) because you can't get baby trees to thrive under the larger ones. Environmentalists love selective logging because it looks prettier, but they aren't their trees. I planted 6 trees on the same day from the same bag, 3 under partial shade and the other 3 in the open. 12 years later, the shaded trees are less than 7 ft. tall while the ones in the open are 35 ft. Check with your extension forester on appropriate silvicultural methods.

Logging systems: Dozers are common, but the modern way is to log using excavators. They are faster, cheaper and do a better job piling the slash, all with less damage to the site. They have only taken off here in the last 15 yrs., it could be no one uses them in your area, but if they do, that's the way to go.

Timber prices fluctuate alot and with Katrina pushing more logs onto the market and with rising interest slowing new home sales, I would expect log prices to be dropping. Timber markets are somewhat local, so check your local area--again, your extension forester can help.

 

[moeh1]

Some other points to consider tie back to what is in the contract for the bid price they give you. Some people want to keep bio-diversity and not high-end cut all the good trees. Some people want tops limbed up and brush piled for wildlife. Some want logging trails returned back to original state ( with a posted bond to make sure they come back). Some specify specific weather conditions/time of year that cutting is permitted. Up here, alot of bid trees have core rot, many people specify that any tree cut has to be dropped ( I have seen a 200' oak tree 3' in diameter left with 4" of wood not cut potentially waiting to kill someone). It depends on what you want to do with the land after the sale and if you are trying to maximize profit, or looking to the future use/value of the woodlot and the land future use. Here in NY, we have some very seasonal swings in the market as well depending on species. We have some consulting foresters thru our state conservation program that give some free advice and recommend forestry professionals. If you are not in a hurry, doing some homework may help you decide exactly what you want from this.
Best of luck