Engine will not turn over. Where to start?

/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start?
  • Thread Starter
#41  
dusty, thanks again for the advice. will a spun bearing be obvious by looking at it or will i need to pull the main bearing caps?

cp1969, i'd never band-aid something and sell it w/o notifying the buyer. in any event, i don't plan on selling it. i may band-aid it, or buy another tractor and eventually fix the old long. we just moved to our new house and we are still carrying the mortgage on the other place. if it sells soon, then we'll just buy another tractor. if it doesn't sell for a while, then i'll try to band-aid the old long, if possible.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #42  
You'll need to pull main & rod caps to find the spun bearing, if there is one. Once you do that, it will be obvious. If it is from lack of oil, it will usually be as far away from the oil pump as possible--that's the one that did without lube the longest, so start there and work your way closer to the oil pump. Then, if you can bear it, look at the crankshaft. It is very unlikely that you can spin a bearing and not damage the crank.

Thumbs up on the paragraph directed at me. It's good to know there are honest men out there.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #43  
KICK said:
most likely a part failed, could or could not have anything to do with maintnence.

you can do all the PM's in the world and not prevent a valve from breaking and falling into the piston.

as they say ...... ***** happens.

Kick I apologize Cacinok had asked the question how many hours are ok on a used machine. I was makeing a joke in response to that question. I will admit that some people think my sense of humor needs more development.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start?
  • Thread Starter
#44  
gemini5362 said:
Kick I apologize Cacinok had asked the question how many hours are ok on a used machine. I was makeing a joke in response to that question. I will admit that some people think my sense of humor needs more development.
it there is something that all forums need, but i've never seen one that works is a smiley that conveys sarcasm.

@cp1969, thanks for the info. i figured i'd need to dig into, but wonder if there might be other signs, besides, of course, the obvious metal shards everywhere.

thanks again to everybody who posted. i've definitely learned a lot and appreciate the sharing of your knowledge.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #45  
I don't think I saw anywhere in these messages that a check whether the starter is getting juice when installed on the tractor.
Does the starter click or grind teeth ?
I think a previous poster mentioned kill switches. I "invested" in a new battery, a charger and several hours on my Kabota before I realized I can't start it unless I put in the clutch LOL. I was trying unsucessfully to start it in nuetral standing beside the tractor.
If you hear nothing from the starter then probably the engine IS NOT siezed-its electrical. Note a diesel makes a lot of clicking noises normally-sounds like valve lifter problems.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start?
  • Thread Starter
#46  
Knotbored said:
I don't think I saw anywhere in these messages that a check whether the starter is getting juice when installed on the tractor.
Does the starter click or grind teeth ?
I think a previous poster mentioned kill switches. I "invested" in a new battery, a charger and several hours on my Kabota before I realized I can't start it unless I put in the clutch LOL. I was trying unsucessfully to start it in nuetral standing beside the tractor.
If you hear nothing from the starter then probably the engine IS NOT siezed-its electrical. Note a diesel makes a lot of clicking noises normally-sounds like valve lifter problems.
yeah that was the first thing that i checked. i put the battery charger directly on the starter and used a remote starter to engage the starter and you could hear the starter engage the flywheel, but it wouldn't turn. i have tried to manually move the flywheel and it will not budge.

as an aside, sedro-wooley is a great place. i'm from everett, but lived in bellingham for a few years and took some drives w/ my gf through the sedro-wooley area, up into the mountains.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #47  
You said the engine only turns about 1/2". Is this in either direction? In other words, did you only turn it one way, and then no more, or does the flywheel turn 1/2" back and forth, and then no further in any direction?

Personally, I would jack up the one rear wheel, block the other rear wheel (or better apply the brake firmly for this other wheel) and put it in the highest gear possible, and try rocking the engine with the raised rear wheel. If a valve isn't dropped you won't do any more damage, and you should be able to tell if it the engine is siezed or will actually move with a little effort.

It was running, so it seems very strange that it would have siezed that tightly unless it was very hot for some reason. And it is hard to see how you could have spun a bearing at idle unless it was very low on oil, which you say it wasn't. That is unless it set for a long time and rust built up on the crank which might have frozen one bearing, in which case you might be able to get by just replacing that bearing, if the crank isn't too badly pitted.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #48  
cp1969 said:
If it is from lack of oil, it will usually be as far away from the oil pump as possible--that's the one that did without lube the longest, so start there and work your way closer to the oil pump.

Actually this makes perfect sense but it's the opposite. In a run out of oil case or a failed oil pump it's usually one of the closest to the oil pump. It's the first one to run out of oil. Some air in the system will work oil through the galleys. On the diesels I worked on when I was a mechanic we ran some tests..IE run engines out of oil. In our engines the #2 was the first one in the oil galley. It would spin the rod every time. So if you brought in an engine with #2 spun rod...then warranty rejected on the spot. And usually the rod does go first because it has the most loads on it. I never rebuild an engine with a spun main...the rods start making noise and someone with stop the engine. But on the gen sets and irrigation pumps...they keep running and can make a mess. Most of those would shut down because of sensors if they hadn't been bypassed. But under a full load it doesn't take long.

Good Luck on the fix.

Rob
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #49  
Take the belts off to make sure it is not the alternator or water pump locked up. I have ran in to this before. If the hydraulic pump is mounted on engine it could be that. Make shure pto is off it could be the brush hog.
Larry
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #50  
RobJ said:
Actually this makes perfect sense but it's the opposite. In a run out of oil case or a failed oil pump it's usually one of the closest to the oil pump. It's the first one to run out of oil.
That's contrary to my experience, and would seem to be a violation of the laws of fluid dynamics. Not saying you didn't experience what you did, but I have seen spun bearings on #1 cylinder when the oil pump fed up through rear main cap. If what you're saying is universally true, then #4 should have bit the dust first.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #51  
Guys I dont know nothing about engines to speak of I understand the terms and know what you are saying but that is about it. The number of engines I have rebuilt can be counterd on one hand. If my parents would have had more money when I was growing up I would not even be able to have had that positive experience. Now that I have said that I have a question. Would not which bearing goes first have to do with the amount of wear on a bearing. I believe that bearings do not wear at exactly the same rate for whatever reason. If you had a bearing with more wear it would be a looser fit so wouldnt the bearing that had the least wear be more likely to be the one that seizes up due to heat expanding it and making it tighter first. Or do i have it backwards or does it even matter as far as wear goes ?
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #52  
cp1969 said:
That's contrary to my experience, and would seem to be a violation of the laws of fluid dynamics. Not saying you didn't experience what you did, but I have seen spun bearings on #1 cylinder when the oil pump fed up through rear main cap. If what you're saying is universally true, then #4 should have bit the dust first.

Well I know bupkus about fluid dynamics but I worked for a large German diesel manufactor that had to know what was going on in their engines to process the warranty claims. So they tested a lot of things. They also knew what cylinder would burn up first when the engine was overheated. All sorts of fun stuff they taught me because while working for the OEM dealer I was the first one to document the possible failures.

Back to fluid dynamics (that's cool to say :D), If I'm sucking a coke through a straw and run out of coke, I may still have coke at my mouth but the bottom of the straw is empty. And if I'm blowing air into the straw, I can move the coke at the oppisite end of the straw. So in both cases the area closest to the supply is dry first. No way I invented this stuff...the engineers I guess did.

Rob
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #53  
Back to fluid dynamics (that's cool to say :D), If I'm sucking a coke through a straw and run out of coke, I may still have coke at my mouth but the bottom of the straw is empty. And if I'm blowing air into the straw, I can move the coke at the oppisite end of the straw. So in both cases the area closest to the supply is dry first. No way I invented this stuff...the engineers I guess did.

Rob[/QUOTE]

So if you had a hole in the middle of the straw( pickup tube) you would have Pepsi (oil) on the ends but none in the middle? causing the center bearings to lock first? I think I might agree with it also being possible that the bearing with the tightest fit would lock first. If one of the bearings had some play, wouldnt that be full of oil? and if not wouldnt the tightest bearing cause the most friction, there by the most heat, there by getting hotter and tighter until it fuses together? or would the cyl with the tightest compression decide wich one locked first? :confused: :confused: :)
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #54  
If I'm sucking a coke through a straw and run out of coke, I may still have coke at my mouth but the bottom of the straw is empty. And if I'm blowing air into the straw, I can move the coke at the oppisite end of the straw. So in both cases the area closest to the supply is dry first. No way I invented this stuff...the engineers I guess did.

Right.........
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #55  
His oil pump could feed the oil straight into an oil galley first, then through out the rest of the engine giving equal pressure and flow to all mains, rods and camshaft etc. etc. I have found 354.4 Perkins run out of oil with one seized main or rod at either end. I guess some of those engines did not listen to the engineer"s.:eek: :D :D
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #56  
Engineers live mostly in the hypothetical world, where as the mechanic / technician live in the real world. I often wonder if the engineers that design some of these items ever held a wrench in their hand, because if they did, they would design it to be serviced a lot easier in the real world. :D
Dusty
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #57  
If engineers did not keep trying to reinvent the wheel I wouldn't have a job.
 
/ Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #58  
firemanpat2910 said:
So if you had a hole in the middle of the straw( pickup tube) you would have Pepsi (oil) on the ends but none in the middle? causing the center bearings to lock first? I think I might agree with it also being possible that the bearing with the tightest fit would lock first. If one of the bearings had some play, wouldnt that be full of oil? and if not wouldnt the tightest bearing cause the most friction, there by the most heat, there by getting hotter and tighter until it fuses together? or would the cyl with the tightest compression decide wich one locked first? :confused: :confused: :)

I guess unless you've rebuilt over 100 engines it's hard to understand. In the engines I mainly worked on #2 was the case. The reason why it was number 2 because of the oil flow...straight from the oil pump...to the filter. The filter bracket was on the side of the engine at #2 (these diesels the #1 was closest to the flywheel). So even though the oil entered the galley, the closest spot was #2. As the engine runs out of oil it will begin to pick up some and and oil....hehe like my straw....it'll keep pushing some oil that's left in the far ends of the galley. The oil that actually protects the bearings is microscopic. But just enough to work, also the clearances on the bearings is in the thousands. In the "worn out" engines I rebuilt, the wear was generally equally spread out. In a general failure, I guess it's just the luck of the draw as to which one fails first. But in certain failures things can point to the problem. If I overheated my 3 cylinder diesel in most cases the piston to go first would be #2. Because it's the only one that's surrounded by heat. It may not be 100% but in trials that was the one.

In your examples I'll give you my thoughts...the loose bearing would go first IMO. Why? Because We have to start with a control...and in this case we have to say that when new the engine was all within spec. If someone installed the bearing improperly or the wrong bearing (it happens), then human error is the cause. The loose bearing will have less oil pressure, possibly effecting the oil pressure as a whole if bad enough. The pounding IMO could eventually cause a failure. I happen to be cheating on this one. My BIL just rebuilt the bottom end on his JD350 dozer. He said all he had was a standard bearing and the crank had been cut .010. So the bearing was .010 to small. The dozer ran for about 300 feet and placed a nice size hole in the block.

In the case of a piston. Actually the only friction in the cylinder wall is the rings. More wear the less friction. There is contact on top if there is a lot of carbon buildup. If the skirt of the piston ever touches the wall it's over in seconds. Remember the microscopic film of oil also protects the skirt. Also in the diesels I've rebuilt (not the gassers...interesting), the skirt is knurled (think knurled, hair thickness lines cut in it..don't know what they call it). My guess is this reduces surface area and traps oil. So what causes piston failure, rings break, ring lands give way (I hate ether), overheating causes oil breakdown. I have seen pistons gaulded and the lower end ok. Usually overheating. In most of my cases it was because the fuel pump was set for intermitting load but ended up running at a continous load. Melted the skirt.

In old engines that fail it's a crapshoot. Like I've seen in older engined the oil pump drive gear strip out. So in this case the oil flow suddenly stops. Maybe gravity feeds some parts longer than others. So maybe it's number 2 that goes first. But in the end the mechanic discoverys the problem to be the oil pump, so whether number 2 or number 6, the problem is the oil pump gear.

I'm still very interested as to what happened in this case. Another chapter to add to the book on possible problems. If the engine won't turn in either direction then something is siezed or broke and locked into place.

Pictures are always cool to.
 

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