Hello everyone...I got a call from my friend this morning to come over and try to diagnose an electrical issue he was having with an outdoor sump pump. The issue was a burned up plug which I replaced no problem. I am not aware of why the plug would burn up but at the time it was plugged into an extension cord. His sump pump is installed in the concrete under a grate at the bottom of his exposed basement access stairs (It is a finished basement and this keeps the rain water from getting inside). My concern lies with the placement of the outlet which is also in the "pit". The outlet most definately gets soaked with water at times. This circuit has no GFCI at the outlet or at the panel. Am I missing something here? Is there some way that this electrician did this install properly. Has anyone seen this type of setup before? I am just thinking in the event that the float switch fails the water will easily fill the pit submerging the live outlet and creating a puddle people will step in.
Electrical hazard???
- Thread starter Rodmo1
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beenthere
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Do you think an electrician did the wiring?
Being in the pit, corrosion would be a big concern. If the water gets to the outlet, then the circuit breaker should trip off. Maybe that is the built-in alarm that the pit is overflowing
.
A GFCI in the line would be good, IMO.
I don't understand the mention of an extension cord. If an electrician wired it, then the sump pump power cord should be plugged into an outlet box, outside of the pit. I'd think anyway.
Sounds like an electrical job by someone not knowledgable in electric codes.
Being in the pit, corrosion would be a big concern. If the water gets to the outlet, then the circuit breaker should trip off. Maybe that is the built-in alarm that the pit is overflowing
. A GFCI in the line would be good, IMO.
I don't understand the mention of an extension cord. If an electrician wired it, then the sump pump power cord should be plugged into an outlet box, outside of the pit. I'd think anyway.
Sounds like an electrical job by someone not knowledgable in electric codes.
bota7800
Gold Member
I cannot believe that is to code. Even if it is, if it were me, I would move that box above grade in a waterproof outdoor box.
As it happens, I was working on a drainage issue today when the sawsall plug fell into the water. I had to hike back to the garage to reset the GCFI. It did its job.
My actual sump pump is hardwired to a box on the house that has a light and a siren that go off if the pump fails. They seem common now because I saw them on several of the houses we looked at.
As it happens, I was working on a drainage issue today when the sawsall plug fell into the water. I had to hike back to the garage to reset the GCFI. It did its job.
My actual sump pump is hardwired to a box on the house that has a light and a siren that go off if the pump fails. They seem common now because I saw them on several of the houses we looked at.
Last edited:
JB4310
Super Member
Definitely wouldn't want the outlet in the pit, I install alot of sump pumps, but have never put one outside.
Those walk outs and hatchways are the most common job we do, most of the time a gravity drain can be tied into existing footing drain system.
As far as the GFI, at one time it was not required/recommended as you wouldn't want a nuisance trip to put your pump off line, but now I think it is required to have a GFI for sump pump, but not sure, even these guys can't seem to agree.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=86562
The one time I was shocked by household voltage was by touching a defective sump pump, that also must not of had a good ground. Not a bad shock, more of just a real strong tingle.
JB
Those walk outs and hatchways are the most common job we do, most of the time a gravity drain can be tied into existing footing drain system.
As far as the GFI, at one time it was not required/recommended as you wouldn't want a nuisance trip to put your pump off line, but now I think it is required to have a GFI for sump pump, but not sure, even these guys can't seem to agree.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=86562
The one time I was shocked by household voltage was by touching a defective sump pump, that also must not of had a good ground. Not a bad shock, more of just a real strong tingle.
JB
theboman
Veteran Member
I'd want to know what the pump pulls amp wise when pumping a lot.
RVers use adapters all the time and many times they'll try to run an air conditioner with the 30 amp cord adapted down to a 15 amp. Then they may even be an extension cord involved. I've not seen a fire but seen many a melted adapter, hot cord....etc.
RVers use adapters all the time and many times they'll try to run an air conditioner with the 30 amp cord adapted down to a 15 amp. Then they may even be an extension cord involved. I've not seen a fire but seen many a melted adapter, hot cord....etc.
dave1949
Super Star Member
If the water gets to the outlet, then the circuit breaker should trip off. Maybe that is the built-in alarm that the pit is overflowing
A GFCI in the line would be good, IMO.
.
This is small nitpick, but for safety. I believe in pre-GFI wiring, a submerged appliance or outlet may not trip the breaker. So, don't wade through a flooded basement with underwater washer, dryer, etc. until the power is off.
Dave.
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Find out what size circuit breaker is on that plug.
I was plugging in some lights into what I thought was a 20 amp circuit - well it looked like a 20 amp circuit because it had a typical hose outlet.
The lights were 1000 watt lights so normally you could get 2 lights on a 20 amp circuit, well a guy cam along an plugged in two more lights and I saw what he did and I was scratching my head. Then I smelled something burning. I felt the extension cord and it was hot. I went back to unplug the cord at the outlet and when I did the rubber around the plus was so soft from heat that when I pulled it out the plug came away from the prongs in a gooey mess.
I **** the breaker off and that痴 when I say some knucklehead has wired a 20 amp plug to a 50 amp breaker.
Check the breaker it痴 allowing too much power to get to the plug and not blowing at the 15 Or 20 amp mark.
I was plugging in some lights into what I thought was a 20 amp circuit - well it looked like a 20 amp circuit because it had a typical hose outlet.
The lights were 1000 watt lights so normally you could get 2 lights on a 20 amp circuit, well a guy cam along an plugged in two more lights and I saw what he did and I was scratching my head. Then I smelled something burning. I felt the extension cord and it was hot. I went back to unplug the cord at the outlet and when I did the rubber around the plus was so soft from heat that when I pulled it out the plug came away from the prongs in a gooey mess.
I **** the breaker off and that痴 when I say some knucklehead has wired a 20 amp plug to a 50 amp breaker.
Check the breaker it痴 allowing too much power to get to the plug and not blowing at the 15 Or 20 amp mark.
Pops15
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Sounds like multiple problems.
When you say "pit" you are talking about the pit below the floor that the pump is in? Or are you talking about the stair well? Two very different things. No way a receptacle should ever be installed in the sump pit. Since you said an extension cord was used I'm going to guess the receptacle is in the stair well. Extension cords are not supposed to be used for permanent wiring. In other words something like a sump pump thats plugged in all the time shouldn't use an extension cord.
There are several things that could cause the plug to get hot. Corrosion on the plug, receptacle or wiring. A broken wire in the pump cord or extension cord. A breaker that's too big for the gauge wire in conjunction with a pump that draws more amps than the wire is rated for.
Thanks guys for all the responses...To clear some things up. When I say "pit" I am referring to the actual sump pit that sits below the bottom step before you enter the basement. It is about 11" deep covered with a metal grate. The outlet is inside this "pit". When I went over yesterday he explained the situation to me like this:
1. The pump started to become intermittent (I believe this was due to the switch being jammed with debris)
2. The pump fails on the "pit" outlet (caused by tripped breaker) (friend is unaware of circuit breaker operation)
3. Friend wires up pump to extension cord without switch
4. Pump runs constantly and eventually cord plug burns up
Obviously this guy is not very good with electric and the funny thing is he works as a civil engineer designing sewer treatment plants??
All I did yesterday was wire a new plug onto the pump and plugged it back into the "pit" outlet. I am going to strongly encourage him to not use this outlet and hire someone to install a gfci outlet on the wall of the entrance. I do not personally want to be involved with this project as I see it as a liability (I am not a licensed electrician)
Rod M.
1. The pump started to become intermittent (I believe this was due to the switch being jammed with debris)
2. The pump fails on the "pit" outlet (caused by tripped breaker) (friend is unaware of circuit breaker operation)
3. Friend wires up pump to extension cord without switch
4. Pump runs constantly and eventually cord plug burns up
Obviously this guy is not very good with electric and the funny thing is he works as a civil engineer designing sewer treatment plants??
All I did yesterday was wire a new plug onto the pump and plugged it back into the "pit" outlet. I am going to strongly encourage him to not use this outlet and hire someone to install a gfci outlet on the wall of the entrance. I do not personally want to be involved with this project as I see it as a liability (I am not a licensed electrician)
Rod M.
To answer a few more questions...
The breaker the pump runs off of is unknown, none of their breakers are labeled and he cannot remember which one was tripped when he found it. They have 2 200 amp panels so I was not about to try everyone. All I saw is no GFCI breakers on the panel
The pump is 1/2 horsepower...1 hp = 746 watts 746/2 = 373 watts
373 watts plus heat loss should be less then 5 amps
From what I know of the NEC all sump pumps need to be on a simplex outlet and as in the link mentioned earlier the need for a GFCI is up to debate.
From my experience/knowledge when an outlet gets submerged several things can happen
1. leakage currents can pass between hot/neutral flowing through water and will result in wasted electricity but may not be enough current to trip breaker
2. Water in contact with hot becomes energized and waits patiently for a path to ground
After reading responses I am fairly certain that this is a dangerous design and not a common practice.
Rod M.
The breaker the pump runs off of is unknown, none of their breakers are labeled and he cannot remember which one was tripped when he found it. They have 2 200 amp panels so I was not about to try everyone. All I saw is no GFCI breakers on the panel
The pump is 1/2 horsepower...1 hp = 746 watts 746/2 = 373 watts
373 watts plus heat loss should be less then 5 amps
From what I know of the NEC all sump pumps need to be on a simplex outlet and as in the link mentioned earlier the need for a GFCI is up to debate.
From my experience/knowledge when an outlet gets submerged several things can happen
1. leakage currents can pass between hot/neutral flowing through water and will result in wasted electricity but may not be enough current to trip breaker
2. Water in contact with hot becomes energized and waits patiently for a path to ground
After reading responses I am fairly certain that this is a dangerous design and not a common practice.
Rod M.