Driveway Rolling

fenneran · Sep 27, 2005

I just had our driveway re-done with "milled material" (at least that's what they call it around here...the ground-up asphalt from road projects). The drive is about 1/2 mile long with a steep hill in the middle. The last time we did it, it lasted about five years, but I had to constantly scrape the material back up the hill after a rain. So this time, I contracted to have the drive "rolled" after it was applied. They came today with a vibrating roller machine (like a steam-roller, but with one roller that vibrates). I had to pay a three-hour minumum charge ($300) for the job, which included drive and setup time, which was fine.

He rolled up one side of the drive and down the other and was gone. Total rolling time: 20 minutes. Did I take it in the shorts, or is one pass all I should have expected? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

beenthere · Sep 27, 2005

I would have expected him to roll for the entire time you paid him for, less the transportation time. If his 'drive and setup' time didn't amount to much, say total of 1 hour, then you should have had the roller rolling for the other 2 hours, whether it did any good or not. If the 'drive and setup time' took the entire 2 hours 40 minutes, then you had an expensive roll of the drive and of your pocketbook. IMO.

Toiyabe · Sep 27, 2005

I agree that unless I told the operator otherwise I would expect him to roll for the full length of time I paid for.

Whether extra passes would have helped your driveway is difficult to determine. 1/2 mile each way in 20 minutes is 3 mph - ususally figure 2.5-3 mph for a vibratory roller so at least he didn't cheat you on that.

I would have wanted an overlap between passes of more than one-half of the roller width (slightly more so the second and third pass don't line up exactly). I would also have wanted two complete coverages, although I don't know that the second coverage would accomplish anything. When mobilization/demobilization of the equipment is the big cost it's worthwhile to be conservative, IMHO. I also would have used a pnuematic tired roller if the costs were reasonably equivalent - tends to get a tighter surface.

You'll probably be fine so long as you're happy with the smoothness of the surface. I don't expect that the RAP (recycled asphalt pavement) will erode even if it is under-compacted - but you can judge that better than any of us by looking and kicking at it.

Boomerang1 · Sep 27, 2005

I charged a 1 hour minimum of $50.00 and loaded a customers pickup truck with 2 bucket fulls of dirt, which took 10 minutes, did the customer get a ripped off? If he did, he sure had a big smile on his face when he paid me and thanked me for all labor I saved him. If you agree on a minimum charge, it doesn't matter how long it takes.

Toiyabe · Sep 27, 2005

Well, it's a common problem at all levels of the construction buisness - poorly defined scope of work.

In the case of loading a pickup, it's clear that the scope is to load the pickup. You load the pickup, collect $50 from the client and everyone is happy.

When it comes to rolling a driveway, the scope is less clear. For a highway job, the client would specify a required density for the layer, and it would be up to the contractor to determine what equipment to use and how to use it. Without that control, the client has to make those determinations, and most homeowners don't know how.

In this case, client probably assumed that there is some standard procedure for rolling a driveway, and the contractor apparently didn't bother to clearly explain what he thought the scope was. If the contractor explained that the client was going to get one trip up and one trip down the driveway for 3 hours of billed work, the client probably would have asked for more passes.

I guess it's an object lesson to always make sure that both sides understand clearly what the job entails. That's a responsibility for both the client and contractor, but especially the contractor if he values his professional reputation.

beenthere · Sep 28, 2005

If you want to use that analogy, I would say if you stopped when you had one bucket of dirt in the guy's truck, and said 'good day' I'm done, that it would be a better analogy. Clearly, as pointed out, not the same situation.
I think the drive should have been rolled for the length of time that used up the $300. Otherwise, it borders on theft IMO and I would be complaining. Each pass of the roller will likely compact the drive more, and make it better.

Just like the compacters (rollers) that roll the fresh asphalt. They don't stop with one pass, as the job ain't done yet. They go back and forth and 'iron' out the asphalt until it is smooth.

This was unfortunate and a clear gouging of the customer. Sad, the way I look at it.

RobertN · Sep 28, 2005

Toiyabe has a good point. What was the scope of work agreed to in the contract, or was there a contract? Did the roller operater meet the scope of work described? That is what we do not know...

If I have a 3 hour minimum on my tractor work, and agree to mow your front pasture but it only takes an hour to mow, then what? Certianly I would not continue to drive around your pasture for two more hours?

I take my tractor out to jobs, and do have a minimum(3 hour). I try to make an accurate time estimate, and ensure both the customer and I understand what is expected on the job. This is especially the case when the job will take less time than my minimum charge.

It appears this scope of work was not clear on this job, either to the customer, the contractor, or both.

Boomerang1 · Sep 30, 2005

( If you want to use that analogy, I would say if you stopped when you had one bucket of dirt in the guy's truck, and said 'good day' I'm done, that it would be a better analogy. Clearly, as pointed out, not the same situation.
I think the drive should have been rolled for the length of time that used up the $300. Otherwise, it borders on theft IMO and I would be complaining. Each pass of the roller will likely compact the drive more, and make it better.

Just like the compacters (rollers) that roll the fresh asphalt. They don't stop with one pass, as the job ain't done yet. They go back and forth and 'iron' out the asphalt until it is smooth.

This was unfortunate and a clear gouging of the customer. Sad, the way I look at it. ) Who was the expert on the job? If the contractor thought one pass down the drive was enough for a proper job who's can argue? Maybe the home owner should have rented a machine for $300 - $400 and spent his own labor and time to get a job that might have looked as good. When I was a professional automotive refinisher, I was paid commission for the job. If I was paid 26hrs. to paint a car and only took 12hrs., did the customer get ripped off? Maybe the customer should have been watching over me and telling me to put put on 4 coats of paint instead of 3. If the home owner would have been away from home when the job was done and not known how many passes were made, would he have complained? Most of my jobs are over bid on purpose because I really don't need the work. I tell the customer before the job how many hrs. I think it will take. I also tell them if I go over the hrs. there is no extra charge. A job bid at 6 hrs. will usually only take me 4 hrs. I don't have people complaining that I didn't spend enough time their home.

Boomerang1 · Sep 30, 2005

( Each pass of the roller will likely compact the drive more, and make it better. . ) You said each pass would likely compact the drive more. Asphalt is put down in "lifts". Usually 2'' at a time and rolled between lifts. If there was only one lift and the contractor had brought a machine that was over sized for the job one pass may have been plenty. Maybe the contractor looked to see how many lifts were put down before he started. When the contractor bid the job, did he do it over the phone, and assumed (never assume) the drive would be laid in two lifts which would require extra passes. I think the home owner should ask the contractor that laid down the drive and find out how many lifts were put down and then call some other companies and ask how many passes would be needed. Then, if the drive was not not rolled enough times, he should call and have the drive rolled again if it was not too late because the asphalt is too hard already. Maybe ask for some money back.

meledward23 · Sep 30, 2005

I have to take the side of the position that you did not get ripped off becuase he only spent twenty minutes at your site.

BUT,

You may have been ripped off if you were paying a PROFESSIONAL to roll your drive properly and do a proper and good job. But what the determination of that is, ? Seriously the auto example is a good one. Just like anything I give an estimate to do a job if I get it done in less I made extra money. Sometimes I may give the client a little back to bolster my rep. But always the client relies on the fact that I am a professional and that I do what is right. Rarely is there another professional involved soley for oversight. How else can one be certain if what you paid for is what you recieved?

This is what makes contract work such a pain. This is why Architects and Engineers get paid Contract Administration fees. Yes your job was to small for all that. But these are the questions and problems customers and contractors have everyday from both sides.