Oil & Fuel DK35 engine oil level increasing

[MotorSeven]

"barely perceptable bypass flow out of the injectors in tubing which is external to engine anyway"

You should have a pretty good return flow...not "barely perceptable". I'd double check that line and make sure it is intact all the way back to the fuel tank. If it is intact this could be an indicator of the source of the problem.

 

[dennis52]

"Plug in bottom clutch housing is dry. ( Why a plug there ?)"

Pretty sure it's for draining condensation. In some tractors I'm told oil overfill can go into the bell housing.
But this is not answering your problem.
Good luck. You seem to be across everything.

 

[AndrewInOz]

Thanks Dennis, I subsequently looked in the manual and it is described as that. I really mean't why plug it at all rather than a hole typ with a split pin to keep free. If condensate can get in , best to have a permanent drain. Anyway, it's not filling with anything so thats ticked off.

HOWEVER, ( rolling around in bed ) I may have made a fatal assumption prev.... Coming home, I called in at our orchard where a 35hp Kutota lives. Its a great old thing, pensioned & rusty from fertilizer but reliable and certainly hasn't gained any oil since its last change some time ago!

I noticed that the fuel side of the engine appears identical to the Kioti EXCEPT the Kubota has a drain cock in the casting below the injector pump. I left site without thinking it thru so I'll need to consult the manual when there next, but its likely an oil resovoir that lubricates the inj pump cam AND the gears driving the hyd pump.

Does this "upper sump" drain by itself on a Kioti but not on a Kubota? No drain cock on the DK35...

Could this sump? erode my "watertight" test of removing the hydraulic pump and running a short 10 min test ( cos this sump was extra full of hyd oil prev leaked in there and then was flung out in the 10 min test ).

If those injectors are ok , I think I'll need prepare a strategy and gear to nail this so we get everything covered. My rough test of fuel consumption and oil gain were just not accurate enough to detect differential on two similar rates. I'll can measure the Kutoba fuel usage rather than having to guess the HP consumed by an unloaded motor. I'm thinking that measuring fuel consumption gives me an easy, accurate, almost instant insight.

Can't run till I get these injectors ticked off (+ Cu & new inlet manif gaskets )
Then can check bypass flow too.

Bit of a saga this one... & I'm sick of tipping new oil into this thing.
Andrew

 

[SSdoxie]

Thanks Dennis, I subsequently looked in the manual and it is described as that. I really mean't why plug it at all rather than a hole typ with a split pin to keep free. If condensate can get in , best to have a permanent drain. Anyway, it's not filling with anything so thats ticked off.

HOWEVER, ( rolling around in bed ) I may have made a fatal assumption prev.... Coming home, I called in at our orchard where a 35hp Kutota lives. Its a great old thing, pensioned & rusty from fertilizer but reliable and certainly hasn't gained any oil since its last change some time ago!

I noticed that the fuel side of the engine appears identical to the Kioti EXCEPT the Kubota has a drain cock in the casting below the injector pump. I left site without thinking it thru so I'll need to consult the manual when there next, but its likely an oil resovoir that lubricates the inj pump cam AND the gears driving the hyd pump.

The casting of the oler Kubota and Kioti (Deadong) engines is very similar because for years Deadong did a large share of block and head casting for Kubota. They still do some today.
The drain cock you saw was very common on Kubotas, it is drain for engine coolant. Just recently, past few years Kubota quit putting them on everything because tendancy to get hit, break and loose coolant and destroy the engine. There is no seperate oil sump to lube the injection pump. Injection pump cam & roller and rack gears are lubed through eingine oil pump supply.

Does this "upper sump" drain by itself on a Kioti but not on a Kubota? No drain cock on the DK35...

Could this sump? erode my "watertight" test of removing the hydraulic pump and running a short 10 min test ( cos this sump was extra full of hyd oil prev leaked in there and then was flung out in the 10 min test ).

If there was hydraulic oil inside the governor housing when you removed the hydraulic pump, the gear pump seal was leaking. You stated that a new gear pump was installed. Did you check to find out why the pump seal was leaking since it "looked OK"? Check control lever for the rear remote, if it is locked into the detent mode it will force hydraulics over relief, generate heat and push oil past the gear pump seal into the engine. This can happen is just a few minutes of operation.
I really suspect your new pump is leaking hydraulic fluid same as the first one. I've seen this happen too frequently to overlook the obvious.

 

[MotorSeven]

SS...I would have a hard time believing that a new replacement pump is also faulty. I didn't think about a lever stuck in detent, but if that was the case all the hydraulics would stop working as soon as things heated up(5min). If the tractor was just sitting & running this may have gone unnoticed.

 

[SSdoxie]

SS...I would have a hard time believing that a new replacement pump is also faulty. I didn't think about a lever stuck in detent, but if that was the case all the hydraulics would stop working as soon as things heated up(5min). If the tractor was just sitting & running this may have gone unnoticed.

No, hydraulics will still work. When you move a function you provide a path of lesser resistance so the oil goes there rather than over relief. if it was a CK model 3 pt wouldn't work in this case but the DKs (at least the Bobcat version of them) use a different rear remote valve that allows simultaneous use of 3 pt & rear remote.
Double check it to be sure.

 

[MichKubota]

If that much diesel fuel is leaking into oil you should be able to smell it in oil.
I know it doesn't sound like the hydraulic pump but was hydraulic pump removed from engine and tested without this pump?

 

[MotorSeven]

No, hydraulics will still work. When you move a function you provide a path of lesser resistance so the oil goes there rather than over relief. if it was a CK model 3 pt wouldn't work in this case but the DKs (at least the Bobcat version of them) use a different rear remote valve that allows simultaneous use of 3 pt & rear remote.
Double check it to be sure.

Not on mine. On two occasions while grubbing mine got bumped into detent. After about 5 min all my hydraulics stopped working....FEl, 3 point, T&T and things got real hot. That is why I neutered my rear remote lever of it's balls. I feel lucky I didn't burn the IP slap up.


Andrew...still no oil test? It's been a month and a half and you have thrown a lot of parts at it. Email Blackstones and they will send you a sample bottle free. Run it, cool it down, take a sample and drop it in the mail so once and for all you will at least know if it is fuel or hydro fluid.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

 

[AndrewInOz]

M7, Yes.
I am in the tropics on the other side of the world, and everything here has been shut down since my first site visit this week : tests + oil sample.
BTW, I did call closest lab in preparation & they indicated that it may be hard to get a definative answer if hyd dilution. But fuel dilution is easy. See what they find...
Everything reopens in new year ( & I get busy elsewhere too )

But in getting that sample, we discovered the oil gain with the the hyd pump completely removed. Cannot see a flaw in my test. But was end of day and I didn't check repeatability before reinstating pump to close off pipes.
( SSdoxie: went back & of course yr right abt Kubota coolant. Doh!)

I was onto the remotes all along ( thanks TBN ) but maybe there is a fault in flow divider / whatever & my test without the hyd pump was somehow flawed. Excluding this test, repeated hydro pump failure from external source fits the symtoms otherwise. Thanks for highlighting that SSd.

Next installment will take at least a week unless I stumble across some local shop open with a pop tester.
thks all, Andrew

 

[OlderMountain]

Did this issue ever get resolved? I am having a similar problem.

 

[AndrewInOz]

Well nearly 10 years this problem has been dogging me, but finally a result...

Summary:
Kioti DK35 260hours "Making Oil" ie Engine oil level increasing.
Said to be fuel : lift pump and injection pump replaced.
Found to be losing hydraulic oil: hyd pump seals replaced x2 + pump replaced.
Found clutch housing filled with oil near to starter motor level, drained and engine no longer making oil. More work ahead.

Details:
Finally got this tractor back home after many years grappling with this fault by periodic replenishing universal gear oil and draining excess engine oil in the field. Only few hours/yr slashing " brush hog" for this so manageable but PITA.
Now with tractor finally home, today repaired a totally unrelated recent problem : sluggish or impossible starting when hot.... to my amazement the starter pinion dripping with oil and the bell housing full to just below the starter.
Amazing because
- it runs fine, clutch normal. bit gutless at low revs but this is our only dk35, only subjective.
- I had checked the clutch housing drain years ago at the start of this.... dry.

So open the small 8mm bell housing drain again.. nothing. But I now know its full and only upon heavy probing with a sharp screwdriver do I break a v hard crust? clogging the drain. Over 5 liters oil drained. Then worked tractor for over an hour and engine oil level OK, but after drained another liter out of the bell housing.
Unfortunately a split necessary to know more, but at least we know where we're going now. This has been a nightmare.. hope this helps others with this obscure but not uncommon problem.

And , the starter problem was just a jammed brush. The armature/solenoid totally dry , protected by O ring seals beyond the planetary reducer. Filed the brush down so slides in its guide. Dead luck it gave trouble.

Take home messages:

- for whatever reason this Kioti has a sealed bell housing. Even the starter motor had a gasket !!
If yours is too & nearing end of warranty, check there isn't oil in the bell ( clutch ) housing. This is a slow burn silent problem with non trivial consequences.

-the motor will test run with the lift pump bypassed so thats any easy test for the most likely cause for increasing engine oil.

- Injection and lift pump leakage is easily determined by viscosity test eg compare drops speed running down eg mudguard.

- the Cassappa hydraulic pump is well supported. Although the DK35 pump is an oem part,there are HP seals available for this family. Low pressure 'LP' shaft seal is generic. The Korean replacement part isn't so well supported here in .AU

- the Casappa hydraulic pump shaft side is ported to the suction so the hydraulic pump HP seals have to leak heaps , guessing impossible flows , to get the shaft pressure over the allowable 1-3 bar pressure so an unlikely cause for an ok looking pump.

- check the gearbox vent in the candy cane filler cap isn't blocked by eg hornets. Good or bad the gearbox is unfortunately very well sealed too so this tiny vent blockage can easily test your seals.

- TBA: thinking to keep the bell housing drain plug in the toolbox.