Concrete Driveway from a mold. (long)

[Roady]

I need some help on this one guys. I've been really debating this in my head for days now and I know, given enough time, I can talk myself into anything.

Around this time of year, I get into my "projects" state of mind. I've decided that this year's theme is going to be concrete. I have a gravel driveway and it annoys me to no end. Plowing and snow blowing are a disaster, not to mention the general look of it. I also need to build a patio on the rear of the house. I've always been a big fan of stone / cement because of the low maintenance and longevity. Pressure treated lumber just isn't what it use to be anymore.

I'm going to start with the patio because that's going to be the easiest. I've decided to go with this because it looks nice and I enjoy DIY projects. Basically it's just a mold that creates a paver look to the concrete. I can color the concrete to my likening and I get to work at my own pace and budget. A couple pics of someone else's work can be found here and here.

A couple of things I want to mention before I get onto my question. The first is that the mold creates individual stones, this isn't a stamp. Once the mold is removed, they are completely separated pieces. They are held together by some sort of mortar mix. The mortar is swept in dry, then sprayed with water to create a bond between all the blocks / stones. The second thing is that the finished cement is 2 inches thick. Now onto my big dilemma.

Can this work for automobile traffic? When I first posed that question to myself I thought NO WAY. Minimum specs for a concrete driveway from any contractor is 4 inches with most saying 5" is the way to go. But then I got to thinking......

The reason for the 4-5 inch thickness is because of cracking. Would it not be reasonable to think that the strength lies with the individual pieces being so small? Sure, I may see some cracking in the mortar joints, but that would be easily patched. What if I used a 5000 psi strength mix instead of the 4000? I know my base is going to have to be perfect. My ground here is hard, very hard. I laid pavers blocks around the house 4 years ago and not one of them have moved. My plan was excavate 4 inches down, plate compact, then lay down 2 inches of cracker dust and plate compact again. I also plan to mortar the blocks with the strongest thing I can find.

Any comments or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Roady

 

[gordon21]

You are essentially doing giant homemade pavers. Commercially made pavers tend to be made with 5,000 PSI mix or stronger. As long as the base is very solid and compacted, you should be OK. Use at least 5K concrete, 8 if you can get it delivered in small amounts. How many of there forms can you do at one time?

I once laid about 2000 SF of hex shape pavers by myself. There was an open center island and about 200 liner feet of edging with a couple indentations for flower beds. I did this over 3 months in my spare time using a SKIL SAW WITH A 7" CONCRETE BLADE to cut all the interior edge pieces. Full rectangular bricks were used for edgers. All I can say is NEVER AGAIN. Of course the smart thing would be to get a lot of edging lined up and then rent a sidewalk saw to cut them with a big 14" blade. The problem is that the nearest rental center was 45 miles away and the saw was about $90 per day. Renting it every weekend would have killed me on costs.


Things to think about:
What is your plan to anchor all the edges?
Grass along the edges? Mower deck height and potential scraping?
Plowing snow? Those wide grout lines could be a problem.
Frost heaving? Pavers self lock. Your stones will not.
Colored concrete? Color in the mix is cheap and permanent with no maintenance.
Can you get a couple extra molds and a buddy and form an assembly line in a convienant spot and then set them in position later?

 

[Builder]

Your plan can work, sure. It's all going to depend on the way the base is constructed. If it's going on virgin, undisturbed or thoroughly compacted soil and the proper base is laid you can do it. I would be very concerned with water-making sure it runs off or ot of the pavers and the edging you use. As you probably know, the outer pavers will want to move outward without a barrier edge to keep them in place.

You can buy a simple concrete mixer and make your own mix so you can make the pavers at your own pace.

 

[hunterridgefarm]

Roady,
You have got some good pointers so far.

I have that same mold and used it for a sidewalk 15-18 years ago. I have a 16x16 foot deck at our current house and used the mold for a sidewalk on two sides. It has held up good except for the filler between the stones. It seems to crack and chip out every couple of years. But that was most likely due to something I did or did not do.

One thing for sure...GET HELP... that thing will work you. I had to do mine by myself. I would mix two bags and lay two molds. When you pull the mold up it will leave a line around the stones from the mold and you have to smooth those out. It does take a long time to do but would be quicker if you had help. I swore I would NEVER use it again and its still hanging in my pole barn.
If I ever did a patio I would have it poured and stamped .

I would suggest starting on a small scale to see how you like it and how much time it takes.

They do look very nice and I have had a lot of people ask to use the form over the years. But once I showed them how to use it they backed out .

Good Luck and post pics!!

David

 

[Builder]

EVERY paver patio or driveway I've seen "laid dry" (or laid on top of packed stone/screenings) suffered from cracked joints or lose mortar joints later on because the brick move too easily. I think you'd be better off with sand or screenings between them rather than mortar unless you can put a concrete base under the pavers, then you would be OK with mortar between them.

Might be too spendy, but if there's any way you can pour concrete slabs with contol joints, then lay your pavers on top of them and "bed" them in a thin layer of mortar, they'll stay in place longer and won't suffer from popped joints.

I have done several of these. One of these the right way about 7 years ago and it has stood the test of time. I poured a 4" concrete walk with control joints and let it cure thoroughly leaving a rough finish. I then selected my paver brick. I then mixed my mortar batches and poured them out on the sidewalk working with maybe 10 sq ft at a time. I then "squished" the brick into the mortar, allowing some of it to rise up between the bricks, then quickly cleaned them off on the tops. I have had this as my 70' front walkway for 6+ years and never popped a joint or brick.

Should work the same for a driveway with a properly prepped stone base and some rebar.

At my customer's insistance, I did a flagstone patio dry laid on a tamped bed of stone over fabric & upper layer of screenings. We did everything we could to roll water off the patio. We used mortar joints between the flagstones and they popped some joints. looked terrible IMO, but the Customer didn't care. I won't do it again-and that was only foot traffic.

 

[Superduper]

I know what you are talking about and I've been there, done that. Don't believe I'll ever do another one and I can't recommend it either as the results weren't what I expected. I used exactly the product you referred to (walkmaker) and all I can say is that it is not as easy to use as they say and it's very difficult to keep the entire project level. The final product does look acceptable from a distance but up close, the appearance never did live up to my expectations. Cracks will develop, weeds will grow through the cracks, and the cracks attract dirt. For maximum strength, you use the more expensive quickcrete product and the mold is not as easy to trowell as you might think. Personally, after having tried it, I wouldn't even THINK about doing a whole driveway in this manner. I recommend the following method instead.

More recently, I tackled this project and the results have been nothing short of fantastic. The cost ended up to be not much more than the mold method. There is no mixing involved (and trust me, mixing cement and the dust will wear you out faster than you can say cheese). The results is, as you can see, very acceptable and you can do this over the course of many days, if necessary. I can tell you that I laid this path by myself (even with all the cutting necessary to create the curved path and pattern) in 1 short day (10 a.m. to 4 p.m.) The base preparation took longer but as you can see, there wasn't enough room for my tractor to assist otherwise it would have been a real peice of cake. If I were doing a complete driveway, I'm guessing that it wouldn't have taken that much longer because once the base is prepared and ready to go, the most time consuming portion of laying the walk is cutting the pavers which you only do on curves and edges. All of the middle sections can be completed as fast as you can drop them into place. When it is done, it is done! Each paver comes to around 40-55 cents each. You can estimate approx $2.50/sq feet for the finishing materials and a little bit more for the gravel/base mix and some sand to top it off. The best part is that once the pavers are laid and vibrated in, the project is done and usable IMMEDIATELY. It is easily repairable and can easily support vehicle and truck traffic. Again, the cost is not as much as you would think becase the pavers are formed from very high strength concrete and colored through. To duplicate this, you would need to purchase the most expensive type of bagged mix and if you haven't priced the dye/coloring mix, you might be in for a suprise. With my aging body constantly complaining, I paid the $80 delivery charge for HD to deliver 3 full pallets because I couldn't see myself loading/unloading 8000 +/- lbs of masonary materials and putting all that wear/tear on my truck for $80. Besides, I charged it to my client anyhow for whom I did the job.

 

[Builder]

I know what you are talking about and I've been there, done that. Don't believe I'll ever do another one and I can't recommend it either as the results weren't what I expected. I used exactly the product you referred to (walkmaker) and all I can say is that it is not as easy to use as they say and it's very difficult to keep the entire project level. The final product does look acceptable from a distance but up close, the appearance never did live up to my expectations. Cracks will develop, weeds will grow through the cracks, and the cracks attract dirt. For maximum strength, you use the more expensive quickcrete product and the mold is not as easy to trowell as you might think. Personally, after having tried it, I wouldn't even THINK about doing a whole driveway in this manner. I recommend the following method instead.

More recently, I tackled this project and the results have been nothing short of fantastic. The cost ended up to be not much more than the mold method. There is no mixing involved (and trust me, mixing cement and the dust will wear you out faster than you can say cheese). The results is, as you can see, very acceptable and you can do this over the course of many days, if necessary. I can tell you that I laid this path by myself (even with all the cutting necessary to create the curved path and pattern) in 1 short day (10 a.m. to 4 p.m.) The base preparation took longer but as you can see, there wasn't enough room for my tractor to assist otherwise it would have been a real peice of cake. If I were doing a complete driveway, I'm guessing that it wouldn't have taken that much longer because once the base is prepared and ready to go, the most time consuming portion of laying the walk is cutting the pavers which you only do on curves and edges. All of the middle sections can be completed as fast as you can drop them into place. When it is done, it is done! Each paver comes to around 40-55 cents each. You can estimate approx $2.50/sq feet for the finishing materials and a little bit more for the gravel/base mix and some sand to top it off. The best part is that once the pavers are laid and vibrated in, the project is done and usable IMMEDIATELY. It is easily repairable and can easily support vehicle and truck traffic. Again, the cost is not as much as you would think becase the pavers are formed from very high strength concrete and colored through. To duplicate this, you would need to purchase the most expensive type of bagged mix and if you haven't priced the dye/coloring mix, you might be in for a suprise. With my aging body constantly complaining, I paid the $80 delivery charge for HD to deliver 3 full pallets because I couldn't see myself loading/unloading 8000 +/- lbs of masonary materials and putting all that wear/tear on my truck for $80. Besides, I charged it to my client anyhow for whom I did the job.

That's what I would do between the joints-just fill them with sand or screenings. Mortar will eventually crack-out.

 

[Superduper]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that in the time it took me to do this project, at no time did I feel any rush to complete it as all the materials are weather durable since there is no cement to worry about getting wet. All the materials sat outside and I worked on the project when I had time. Most of the time was spent excavating and preparing the base. Again, the actual laying/cutting of the bricks only took 1 day.

This might be an important thing to consider since you are thinking of doing the project a little bit at a time.

BTW, as Builder said, the sand or screenings jointed pavers is the way to go.

 

[Roady]

Great advice guys. I thank you all. One common theme in the replies seems to be "I'll never do it again" and I can sure understand that. I'm going to check a local stone dealer this week to see what they have. The pavers you have shown in your picture superduper are well over a buck each here at HD making the price per sq ft alot higher. I'm thinking going direct may be a better option. I'm thinking the concrete mold may be better suited just for walkways between the paver patio.

 

[Superduper]

A buck + a peice? Really? Over here, it costs almost as much to mold my own as compared to buying. I did the math and it wasn't cheaper, if any so it was a no brainer simply to buy them. I CAN tell you that regardless of the cost, the simplicity in installing them and the fact that there were no time constraints due to a cement workability window made all the difference to me. This was my first attempt and I like to work alone; needless to say, I am happy to report that it was much easier than I expected. This job has convinced me that this is the way to go. In fact, unless I require a slab for garage floor or interior of the home, I will be going this path from now on. My next project will be much larger, probably around 20 times larger but I am confident that it is doable, even for 1 person. A huge 200' long x 12' wide driveway simply isn't possible in concrete for 1 person. Interlocking pavers is.

HD usually only carries material from 1 or 2 suppliers. I would check around at the masonary supply stores and inquire as to prices from local suppliers. For vehicular traffic (and tractor), molding your own 2" thick pavers simply won't compare in strength to the manufactured ones. In fact, basalite claims that interlocking pavers have 3 times the strength of poured concrete. BTW, a final note regarding pricing: I have found that the larger stones (pavers) costs about the same as the smaller ones. I mention this because the number of stones needed for each sq ft differs depending upon the style/pattern desired. In fact, 1/2 stones costs the same as full stones. Therefore, if cost is an issue, I recommend going with large stones/patterns as it is generally more cost effective. Apparently, the manufacturing cost does not drop commensurately to the weight/size of the paver produced.