Collaped Sediment Bowl

   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #1  

ericwill

New member
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Messages
1
Hello all. New poster here from the great state of Mississippi.

wt2203.jpg


My WorkTrax Tractor (Jinma 200 series)
has collapsed 2 Sediment Bowls so far.

The Dealer said not enough ait into the tank.

I have punched holes in the cap and tried running the tractor with no gas cap to no avail.

What is causing this?

SEDIMENTBOWL-M.jpg



ENGINE385RL.jpg
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #2  
I believe if memory serves correct (sometimes it don't) there is a screen at bottom of tank where fitting of sediment bowl screws into tank. Sounds like its plugged.
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #3  
Like HarryG said.. if you have positive ventilation into the tank.. but the sediment bowl colapses.. the valve itself must be plugged.. or some screen between the tank and the sediment bowl is plugged.

Soundguy
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #4  
The fuel flow is a loop. If any segment of the loop is impeded, suction from the fuel pump can collapse the cheap plastic sediment bowls. Not that a glass bowl would fix the blockage, it's just that the collapsed plastic bowl is a symptom that wouldn't be evident with glass.

Anyway, the loop. Assuming the engine is running, the two places the blockage will occur is IN to and OUT from the tank. IN - means the injector bypass hose going into the tank. OUT - means the brass sediment screen inside the tank, just before the fuel cutoff valve.

On most new tractors, my vote goes to algae that has grown in the tank during shipment. Vibration shakes it loose, it clogs the brass screen.

//greg//
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #5  
Greg,
VERY good point/analogy. Much like an air conditioning system any restriction will affect the suction side like the symptoms described. The return line system should also be checked as well as the inlet side to the pump.
Words of wisdom from a post from Glenn at Coastal tractor "Pull off return line and see if fuel flows freely into a jar/bottle, if flows freely then restriction is most likely on suction side."
Like Greg said, its a loop and any restriction on either feed or return will cause excessive suction and could cause bowl to collapse.
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #6  
I would bet it is the screen just above the sediment bowl aluminum casing. OR the on/off valve being turned to the OFF spot.

the return line if it was clogged would not collapse the plastic bowl, it MAY blow the line between the pump and the return to tank, but that should not effect the bowl at all. SUCTION means that there is a blockage between the fuel getting IN to the bowl and the fuel storage location. (in the JINMA case that is only 2 things) the Valve and that screen.)

fuel blockage in the return line would actually slow the suction of fuel down as the pump would then have to pump higher pressure which means LESS flow and LESS suction on the bowl....

I NEVER turn my valve off, if you have been doing this, then it is not needed and will only serve as a reminder to you to not do it when you collapse the bowl... ALSO note, that fule shut off valve may not be compleatly RIGHT, (MINE IS NOT) the hole that goes through it is drilled off on mine so that when the valve is ON the thing is actually in the off postion that we here in USA would easly SEE as the OFF... I was not able to prime mine at first and had to mess with the hand pump for ever, and finally gave up and pulled the bowl and fitting off looking for a clogged screen, and when I looked into the valve it was closed, even though it was in the OPEN postion... (made me feel like a dolt for sure.) /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif since then I have not turned the valve once and it starts on about the 3rd rev every time when above 50 degrees, and the 4th~5th rev when colder and a bit of glow plug action...

Mark M
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #7  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( the return line if it was clogged would not collapse the plastic bowl, it MAY blow the line between the pump and the return to tank, but that should not effect the bowl at all. SUCTION means that there is a blockage between the fuel getting IN to the bowl and the fuel storage location. (in the JINMA case that is only 2 things) the Valve and that screen.)

fuel blockage in the return line would actually slow the suction of fuel down as the pump would then have to pump higher pressure which means LESS flow and LESS suction on the bowl.... )</font>
I've already agreed that odds favor screen blockage above the sediment bowl. But I get the feeling you don't quite have a handle on the physics of fuel flow here. Rather than a modern pusher pump in the tank, Jinma still uses the old method where a remote fuel pump obtains fuel by suction (with a little help from gravity). When fuel is removed from a (sealed) tank, a vacuum is created - unless something (air) is introduced to replace the missing fuel. This used to be the function of vented fuel caps, but the EPA put an end to that.

An obvious function of the return line is to route excess fuel back to the tank. But obviously not as much is returned as is removed, so there still the matter of vacuum to deal with. A very important second function of the return line then, is to vent the tank.

If sufficient venting doesn't occur, the Venturi principle takes over. Remember the Venturi principle? It's what keeps liquid in a straw till you take your finger off the top. It's what makes your garden hose sometimes look like it "went flat". It's what picks up things on some assembly lines. Stop the IN, you get no OUT.

Try it yourself. With the fuel cap sealed tight on the fill neck, shut off the fuel flow at the petcock. Remove the sediment bowl, then remove the return line at the tank end. Open the petcock, fuel will flow. Put your finger over the tanks return hole, the fuel flow will stop.

But the FP isn't smart enough to know if/when the vent is blocked, even though the supply of fuel has stopped. As long as the engine continues to run on what's the fuel filter supply, the FP will continue it's attempt to obtain fuel from the tank that has stopped delivery because of the Venturi effect.

Metal tank, reinforced rubber hose, plastic sediment bowl: which one do you think is going to give up first?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For Eric

Right in the middle of your photo
SEDIMENTBOWL-M.jpg
is a little gold colored cylinder looking thing. That's the screen that we're talking about. It's going to be messy, but you'll have to remove the sediment bowl housing from the tank to get at it. You can buy replacement screens or screen material at most farm supply stores. But since you're going to lose fuel doing this anyway, I think you should take the opportunity to clean out the tank so this screen business doesn't become repetitive. With luck, they might also have a replacement sediment bowl and gasket of comparable diameter.

Your other photo shows a very black looking sediment bowl, indicating it's been a long time since the owner dumped the dirt. I make it a point to check the sediment bowl before I ever start up a cold tractor. If there's any dirt and/or water visible, it gets dumped BEFORE the tractor gets started.

//greg//
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #8  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Remember the Venturi principle? It's what keeps liquid in a straw )</font>

Greg.. remember the original poster said that he had punched holes in the cap.. and even removed the cap... That indicates that it isn't a blocked vent/return line issue... the suction on the fuel bowl from the pump is the issue for this specific problem... Since the tank was standing open.. the only blockage that would be relevant would be from the bottom of the tank, to the top of the fuel bowl.. valve included.

Your logic is clear/correct.. just doesn't completely apply to this specific problem.

Soundguy
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #9  
Chris, it's not like this collapsing plastic bowl problem is a new issue. It's just new to Eric. Please read the entire thread top to bottom and you'll clearly see that I've twice conceded the problem is quite probably the sediment bowl screen. I went as far as to speculate the source of the blockage would be algae that grew in the tank while in transit/storage before sale. I even described to Eric how to identify/locate/replace the bloody thing.

The "Venturi Effect" info was simply to address Mark's assertion that a blocked return line can't stop fuel flow and/or collapse a plastic sediment bowl.

//greg//
 
   / Collaped Sediment Bowl #10  
greg:

you are missunderstanding what "Venturi Effect" is. venturi effect is the resuling lower pressure in a "VENTURI" where liquid flowing faster in a smaller diameter size line will have LOWER PRESSURE @ the smaller line size as the liquid flows PAST an orfice or opening in the smaller diameter line size.

still I'm well aware of the return line and how it works, I still dissagree that if there is no flue going back into the return line then the bowl will not colapse as there will be an excess of fuel pressure and hence no fuel OUT of the pump (high pressure no flow) means no suction up stream of the pump for it to suck the bowl flat. simple fluid dynamics. fluid does not compress, and attempring to suck out fluid from the closed tank will colapse the steel tank pretty quickly. the gas cap on these are open vented types and will not seal of the tank well enough to keep out anything more than some rain... Air goes into them very easliy but pressureize them the other way is what keeps the vapors IN, not the air out... this is leading cause of "Check Engine Lights" on NEW cars, people did not tighten the gas cap the recogmended 3 clicks... after a few min of driving there is susposed to be a + pressure inside the gas tanks to basically keep the fuel vapors IN not AIR out... if they were SEALED you would suck the tank flat in no time... also the carbon canester filters are SUSPOSED to be where AIR is easiest to suck back into the tank, I've also seen the lines for these get kinked/bent or damages so then a tank will collapse or you can hardly get the cap off /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

anyhow I still stay that you will not collapse the bowl if the return line is damaged due to the fact that FUEL can't get OUT of the pump untill a lINE blows from over pressure, and even then it is more likely to damage the pump first...

Mark m
 

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