CK20S HST vs CK20 HST

[Mr. Fixit]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post after reading all the interesting stuff for several months. Many thanks to all that have participated with highly valuable contributions. I think Kioti is the tractor for me. I have narrowed it down for my first real tractor to be CK20 HST with loader and backhoe (the new 2465).

I have an opportunity to buy a leftftover CK20 HST (the older version, but new leftover) or the new CK20S HST with almost $1,000 price difference between the two. So, here is the question: What's the operating/performance difference between the original CK20 and CK20S (both hydrostatic). Before anyone answers, here are a few facts of relevance:
- I know about the 2 hp difference, but how significant is it performance wise?
- I was told by a dealer that the main reason for the engine change was to comply with the new pollution control requirements, but I am skeptical of that argument and think that the original version may have been a bit underpowered for the tractor weight.
- My property is only 2 acres, gentle slope, but rocky, which is why I need a fairly strong backhoe and loader (to move the rocks).
- Need the tractor for landscaping, planting and shaping the property, including some stump removal, adding/spreading topsoil, etc.
- Do not plan on mowing, as I do not want any grass to maintain.
- For heavy excavation (house foundation, etc.), I will have professionals with the big machines come in and do that, but afterwards, I'd like to do the smaller stuff.
- I have about a 200ft gravel driveway, which will be paved at the end, after all the heavy construction machinery is finished with house building, etc. In the meantime, I need to pull a 2,500-3,000 pound vehicle with the Kioti up the gravel driveway (gentle slope, but up-slope nevertheless) any problems anticipated doing it with either one (CK20 or CK20S)? (Backhoe will be removed, of course).
- I am aware of the loader cracking problems on the original version and I would make sure it is the new style, if I buy the leftover?
- I also know about the cold starting problems on the new "S" version, but I am not worried about it, as the machine will be stored indoors, I can always heat it up a bit before starting and once Kioti issues a fix, I can always have it added to the "S" under warranty, if I get that one.
- Do not know how long the leftover has been sitting around and, even if the dealer told me, I could not verify his claim.

So, bottom line save a $1,000 and get a "leftover" or spend the additional grand and get the new one? Any thoughts will be appreciated!

 

[natem]

I believe that all that you have stated about the differences are correct. I bought the new ck20s this past fall, and am very happy and impressed, this is quite the machine. I see you say something about a strong backhoe, let me tell you when I pick up some of the rocks on our property I cant believe how easy it moves them. I think that the only two things that you did not say is that the new s has a horn, and the s has the curved boom backhoe which looks and operates great. I have not used one of the older ones but, I think they are about the same.

 

[beaverhouse]

Hi Mr Fixit!
I`ve been trying to decide between Kioti DK45 and Kubota L4240 and noticed on your profile your a "Kubota tractor Mechanic" but your ready to purchase a Kioti. !! Now thats a tell tale sign of some Kubota issues you`ve encountered...yes? I`d be interested in your thoughts re Kioti vs Kubota reliability and mech. issues?....Its like a Ford mechanic buying a Chev...Or is it strickly a $$ issue
Tks

 

[wallace]

Maybe he is just a thrifty shopper

 

[rimshot]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post after reading all the interesting stuff for several months. Many thanks to all that have participated with highly valuable contributions. I think Kioti is the tractor for me. I have narrowed it down for my first real tractor to be CK20 HST with loader and backhoe (the new 2465).

I have an opportunity to buy a leftftover CK20 HST (the older version, but new leftover) or the new CK20S HST with almost $1,000 price difference between the two. So, here is the question: What's the operating/performance difference between the original CK20 and CK20S (both hydrostatic). Before anyone answers, here are a few facts of relevance:
- I know about the 2 hp difference, but how significant is it performance wise?
- I was told by a dealer that the main reason for the engine change was to comply with the new pollution control requirements, but I am skeptical of that argument and think that the original version may have been a bit underpowered for the tractor weight.
- My property is only 2 acres, gentle slope, but rocky, which is why I need a fairly strong backhoe and loader (to move the rocks).
- Need the tractor for landscaping, planting and shaping the property, including some stump removal, adding/spreading topsoil, etc.
- Do not plan on mowing, as I do not want any grass to maintain.
- For heavy excavation (house foundation, etc.), I will have professionals with the big machines come in and do that, but afterwards, I'd like to do the smaller stuff.
- I have about a 200ft gravel driveway, which will be paved at the end, after all the heavy construction machinery is finished with house building, etc. In the meantime, I need to pull a 2,500-3,000 pound vehicle with the Kioti up the gravel driveway (gentle slope, but up-slope nevertheless) any problems anticipated doing it with either one (CK20 or CK20S)? (Backhoe will be removed, of course).
- I am aware of the loader cracking problems on the original version and I would make sure it is the new style, if I buy the leftover?
- I also know about the cold starting problems on the new "S" version, but I am not worried about it, as the machine will be stored indoors, I can always heat it up a bit before starting and once Kioti issues a fix, I can always have it added to the "S" under warranty, if I get that one.
- Do not know how long the leftover has been sitting around and, even if the dealer told me, I could not verify his claim.

So, bottom line save a $1,000 and get a "leftover" or spend the additional grand and get the new one? Any thoughts will be appreciated![/QUOTE=

==============

$1000 is a lot of money. You could save another grand if you select a CK20 gear model over the HST "S" and pay cash for another savings of nearly a grand over the ''free" financing. Hmmmmmm! So take an older CK20 and you get a free HST tranny out of the deal, right?

I just bought the CK20 (S) HST. It's been a very cold Winter here and my mornings have found the mercury right around zero. I am fortunate
to have a heated garage.......heated to 38* that is. In that envoirnment my CK20 starts fine w/o heat. Stick on a magnetic pan heater a couple hours before blast off and it starts even better at 38* in the garage.

I have heard there is some lug in high gear when going up a hill with the older CK20's which I have never driven. Supposedly they changed some gears and added two H.P. to the twenties and this solved this situation. I don't have any issues with this one so far.

rim

 

[Steve_Miller]

The only concern I would have would be that the older version have the newer style loader on it and not the old one.

Steve

 

[Gittyup]

I wouldn't swing for the extra bucks unless you think you are marginal on PTO HP. For ground engagement, I doubt that you'll notice any difference.

 

[wallace]

Guys not to stir the pot but there is a very noticable difference, I still have not fiqured out everthing that Kioti changed but it is very noticable especially in high range.

 

[rimshot]

Guys not to stir the pot but there is a very noticable difference, I still have not fiqured out everthing that Kioti changed but it is very noticable especially in high range.

============
And the (s) version HST model delivers 10% more horsepower than the old CK20. That is significant. I have driven up a few hills with my new CK20 (S) HST in High range and noticed no significant bogg down other than what can be expected.

I don't know if the gear model gets the (s) version 22 h.p.engine or stays with the 20 horse model.

rim

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Hi guys,

Thanks to all that answered. I will try to comment to everyone at once to save time and space:

"natem": Impressive pictures they certainly helped convince me!!!

"Beaverhouse": I am not a tractor mechanic, but only a tinkerer I like to fix things, build them and repair, as I want to have pride of accomplishment. I did a LOT of research about tractors, but not about the larger units. To me, it comes down to value. Like everything else in life, there are compromises and it all depends on what you need, want and how much to spend. I was very much convinced that Kubota was for me and waited anxiously for the new "B" models to come out and, while I have personally not even seen them as they are too new, I still think that you get more value in a Kioti. There is nothing fundamentally bad about Kubota as far as I know, although some people will argue very emotionally about this or that.

Basically, my research revealed that Kubota pretty much owned the market for small tractors, but Kioti is aggressive and catching up in terms of quality, features and they beat the price. Now, if I were just concerned about resale value, such as in case I wanted to buy a tractor for a year or two and then re-sell it, I think Kubota would hold value better. But, if I wanted to get the most for least $, then I think Kioti is the way to go. Kioti had some initial problems, yes, but what impressed me is that they fix them one by one smart move! In this day and age of internet, word spreads with the speed of light and smart companies know that they need to have a good reputation, which is hard to get and easy to lose. Once good reputation is lost, it is even harder to regain just look at the US auto industry!

Bottom line for Kubota: Longer reputation, strong brand name, better resale value, proven ruggedness

Bottom line for Kioti: Newer kid on the block, so more "hungry" better ergonomics, better pricing, more features standard, some better specs (hydraulics, lifting capacity, etc.)

"rim": Thanks for your cold weather experience thatç—´ what I thought too.

"Steve Miller": I would only consider the new style loader; the old one is a non-starter for me.

"Gyittyup": I am not sure PTO performance would be noticeable as most tractor actions are hydraulic, but I am not really sure if there is any PTO difference between the older and the 鉄 version, which is what I am trying to find out.

"Rick Wallace": If you find out more about the technical changes between the 2 versions, I壇 appreciate a brief post.

Again, thanks for any technical input as I'm in a bit in a dilemma. For $1,000, I can buy some implements, but do not want to regret my "penny pinching"

 

[bearhawk]

I have a 2005 CK20HST and I would say that high range is useless.

If they dropped the gearing and added a little horsepower I would opt for the newer one.

$.02

 

[beaverhouse]

Hi guys,



"

Beaverhouse": I am not a tractor mechanic, but only a tinkerer I like to fix things, build them and repair, as I want to have pride of accomplishment. I did a LOT of research about tractors, but not about the larger units. To me, it comes down to value. Like everything else in life, there are compromises and it all depends on what you need, want and how much to spend. I was very much convinced that Kubota was for me and waited anxiously for the new "B" models to come out and, while I have personally not even seen them as they are too new, I still think that you get more value in a Kioti. There is nothing fundamentally bad about Kubota as far as I know, although some people will argue very emotionally about this or that.

Basically, my research revealed that Kubota pretty much owned the market for small tractors, but Kioti is aggressive and catching up in terms of quality, features and they beat the price. Now, if I were just concerned about resale value, such as in case I wanted to buy a tractor for a year or two and then re-sell it, I think Kubota would hold value better. But, if I wanted to get the most for least $, then I think Kioti is the way to go. Kioti had some initial problems, yes, but what impressed me is that they fix them one by one smart move! In this day and age of internet, word spreads with the speed of light and smart companies know that they need to have a good reputation, which is hard to get and easy to lose. Once good reputation is lost, it is even harder to regain just look at the US auto industry!

Bottom line for Kubota: Longer reputation, strong brand name, better resale value, proven ruggedness

Bottom line for Kioti: Newer kid on the block, so more "hungry" better ergonomics, better pricing, more features standard, some better specs (hydraulics, lifting capacity, etc.)

Well said...I agree with your feedback...I`m "leaning" towards Kioti vs Kubota for the very same reasons you stated...Good luck !

 

[virgil]

I agree the 20 is a little too high geered in high range.
I have a 25 and hardley ever use high range. (noose bleed speed)

 

[IslandTractor]

I have a 2005 CK20HST and I would say that high range is useless.

$.02

That's not fair. I loved using high range when I mowed downhill. It really saved me time. Of course I had to switch back to low range to mow back up the hill.

I think the two speed HST is the biggest Achilles heel on the CK20 now that the loader has been redesigned. The new Kubota Bxx20 series has upgraded from two speed to three speed so I would imagine Kioti will follow with a matching upgrade for the Ck20 pretty soon to stay competitive.

 

[natem]

I have the new 20s and it seems as though that they have changed something because I can go up my driveway which is quit a hill, in high range with out the pedal all the way down, and it will go but you can tell it is working. I will see if I can post a video if anyone wants me to.

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Natem,
That would be great if you could post pictures or a video. I think the new "S" has different gearing on the high range. Also, with HST, I believe the more you press the pedal, the LESS torque to the wheels. Maybe someone can confirm that impression.

 

[Steve_Miller]

Anyone with an older CK20 that has the top speed posted in there manual vs the newer CK top speed (9.3 mph)?

Steve

 

[ChuckinNH]

When the CK20s was first introduced I heard rumors of cold weather starting problems. Has anyone heard if that has been addressed? Does anyone here have one that they have used in cold weather .... (well below freezing?) It sounds like all the improvements are positive. Other companies should look at the high range gear ratios with hydros too!

 

[rimshot]

*warning* long
(partial reprint of PM)
=========

You asked a very good question about cold weather starting and the CK20 (S) 22 h.p. diesel engine. As I am sure you are aware the CK20 had some high range lugging issues with the HST versions of the earlier 20 hp engine version. My dealer admitted this to me as I was concerned about reports of that and was not interested in any built in defects in an $11,000 tractor purchase. He also fessed up to the Loader arm cracking in the older smaller CK20-CK30. To respond to both issues Kioti reenginered the KL120 Loader changing the torque arm configuration and they added 2 H.p.to the CK-20 engine and played with some gear ratios in that thing. Both of these fixes seem to have hit the mark but in their reengineering they re-configured the angle and location of the glow plug which had a negative effect to the sure starts of the older version enjoyed.

Kioti has acknowleged a cold start issue on this hopped up (s) version engine my dealer tells me. For the quick fix,Kioti dealers are installing a engine block heater.

Having been made aware of this condition I have done some experimentation on my own with my new tractor.

#1: Recall the day i received delivery of the new machine. It was snowing a dry type snow and the temp was very close to 20*. The poor tractor had just been pulled up Winter roads through a snow storm for 240 miles one way and although it looked very clean in the picture was covered with a fine salt wet mist undoubtedly encountered from the road salt and water spray vehicle spray from the freeways and roads it rolled across uncovered. At 20* I came to attention as the dealer jumped up on his trailer and stuck the key in the ignition, pushed down on the clutch and placed the throttle at midway and cranked for about five seconds. The CK 20 sputtered and spit but failed to start. He tried again and it coughed a plume of black smoke puffed out and it sounded like it might have hit on two or maybe three cylinders. On about the fourth attempt he spoke to his wife who accompanied him on the trip that he thought he had flooded the engine. Keep in mind, these were attempts to fire up the three cylinder diesel on what i thought were short spirts of a brand new engine that was cold and wet and unplugged (no heat and no covering). Personally I just thought its a typical diesel starting attempt. Anyway I digress but on the fourth try he held the glo plugs on for the required 9 seconds and she started after cranking maybe five seconds but ran quite rough for maybe a minute before sounding like it was hitting on all three. For all I knew it started like a typical cold diesel like the one I used to have in my 85 Ford Pick up truck.

When we unloaded the equipment and had it all stowed away the dealer told me new CK20 (and I assume this applies to the (s)version only) doesn't always start so well in cold weather. To remedy this apparently Kioti will be changing the head design to better accomadate the location of the glo plug as that is apparently the crux of the problem. Kioti will during the Summer of this coming year install engine lower radiator hose block heaters at no charge to current owners. For the time being the dealer gave me a magnetic small stick on oil plan heater.

Now like I said i conducted my experimentation
which is still ongoing for me. you have correctly noted that my garage is heated. I have to say that is right but only to 38* by thermostat. i only do 38* and no more to thaw out the tractor and blower as well as my car.

The first couple of nights the tractor got the introduction to the U.P. of michigan through the comfort of the magnetic heater stuck on. With that magnetic heater on the oil pan for two hours prior to starting this thing when keyed zips through a very efficient and quick start. No abnormal coughing just a smooth quick start. Naturally I came to the conclusion, What do i need to plug this thing in for in a 38* garage. So from that point on to the current period I have not applied the magnetic stick on oil pan engine heater. I hold the glow plug position for the nine seconds and the glo light indicator dims then with clutch depressed and me firmy planted in the seat my tractor has faithfully started first attempt, This is in a garage @ 38* not a degree warmer or colder and defined by thermostat. Now it burps and coughs and pings and runs a bit rough for 10 seconds or so but it starts all the same. I honestly don't know if it would start at 20 degrees after setting out in the wind all night or not yet Chuck but have shut the thing down out at my other house a for a couple hours and jumped on and it started right up.

Whew! probably more than you wanted to know but I hope it helps you. I am absolutely astounded by the solid feel of this thing. They just don't seem to make em this way these days but these things are rock solid and the seat is super. And after viewing that 2320 in your thread today i have to think that Kubota has a dandy also.


Dan (rimshot)
==================
__________________
Kioti CK20(S)HST KL120 LOADER KB2465 BACKHOE Meteor 60" rear snow blower R4 tires (filled) 16' flat bed U.S. Cargo trailer 7000 lb. dual axle trailer with an F150 M

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckinNH

have you had any issues at all with it starting this winter? How cold has the tractor been when it was started?
Chuck

 

[Dmace]

Anyone with an older CK20 that has the top speed posted in there manual vs the newer CK top speed (9.3 mph)?

Steve

On the fender of my CK20 HST, it is rated at 11mph in high range in forward. Driving 2 miles down the highway at 11mph is bad enough, I can just imagine 9mph. I don't mind the high gear, I know it is a travel only gear and only use it to move the tractor long distances or snowblow real light fluffy stuff. I also keep the engine at 2600rpms or more when using high gear. No problems going up the decent sloped driveway or road.

Also, I have started the tractor in temps as low as -8F and it did puff a little black smoke but still had no problem starting. I cycle the glow plugs once, put the throttle at 1/4 full and then crank. It usually takes to the count of 2 or 3 and as soon as it catches, I turn the key back to the glow plug position until the rpms jump up to normal idle. In the bitter cold, I will also set the clutch pedal lever to hold the clutch in until the engine has idled a good 10-15 minutes.