CK20 HST poor power in 2WD, OK in 4WD

[malk315]

Hi Guys-

It's been several years since I've been on this forum. Hope you are all well.

I have a CK20 HST I bought brand new in 2006 that was manufactured in Korea in 2003.

I have had this machine dealer serviced for several years and then serviced by myself and brother since Kioti closed my original dealer and it seemed like every dealer in any kind of range to me. It seems the dealer support is still poor which is surprising given how great the economy is right now.

My CK20 HST just turned 700 hours today. I have the italian made DMM60 mid mount mower deck and I have been mowing every week with it for 13 years now.
I also use the bucket for plowing in the winter which we get plenty of that here in Lancaster, MA.

It's getting about due for HST oil / filters / front axle oil change and the other stuff I change regularly (engine oil, filter, fuel filter, air filter etc.). It has no leaks. I've even changed the radiator coolant last time we did the 6 gallons of HST oil / filters etc. I use all oil products from Tractor Supply -- diesel engine oil and the Traveler brand lubricants -- the hydraulic oil used is one of the ones listed in the manual as correct for the machine if I remember right.

Took the deck off to get ready for snow and added fuel w/ power service in it for anti-gel -- it is stored in a shed outside. about 32 deg. F here today so not tremendously cold.

After moving around a bit I noticed if I pushed HST pedal down to the floor (not too fast, but now slow either) there would be a good delay before the machine get going forward. Same w/ going in reverse -- perhaps a little better going reverse ... but gravity probably going with me.

High range has same problem... ok. Back to low and went over to a 10-15% uphill grade in my yard and it will stop dead on the slight hill w/ HST pedal to the floor as if fluid is bypassing something completely to the rear wheels. Check HST fluid level and it's full and essentially clear (no cloudiness or any sign of moisture in there). The HST does it's usual thing where I pull the dipstick and it's essentially dry -- let it set w/ dipstick out for 30 seconds, dipstick back in, pull it and nice bead of clear HST oil between the low and high marks and definitely right up to the high mark where it belongs, clean, and no moisture. Good there.

Did a bunch more testing and it definitely has a real problem and no way will be pushing snow like that.
Inspected pedal and high/low range lever and all seems normal. Went in and out of high/low range and checked pedal operation while off tractor and damper cylinder thing the pedal has and linkage under the foot deck all looks good. Pedal resistance while pushing in hi vs. low feels normal.

So I put in 4WD and bam -- its like it's old self again. I'm guessing it's just the front tires doing the work. This is great because I will be able to get it loaded under it's own power on my trailer to take it to a dealer for service as this is likely beyond my knowledge.

Do you guys know if being in 4WD could also cause the rear tires to drive better also (I doubt it) but wanted to ask. I'm thinking the 4WD whatever output shaft on the tranny that runs the front wheels the HST that drives that is fine, but whatever internal to the tranny that drives the rear tires is shot or a spun woodruff key type of thing or who the heck knows. I doubt it's a fluid level or filter clog issue as it does fine in 4WD and terrible in 2WD. I have not tried the differential lock ... my diff lock has always been a bit tough to engage, but it does work and has gotten me out of situations when one rear tire spins but not the other.

I can also confirm the clutch is fine because in 4wd I can mash the pedal pretty good and it takes off like it's old self since the front wheels are driving it like it should. Clutch is definitely not slipping and my clutch doesn't get much use since I'm an HST -- I only use the clutch at start and to engage the mower deck.

I will probably give Orchard Hill Farms a call -- it's the only dealer at all in range from me and it's about 56 miles away. I have a 16' trailer and vehicle I can tow it there.

Thanks for any insight here. I hope I can plow with it tomorrow on front wheel drive and then take her in next weekend.

So bummed she's got her first real problem in long long time. I've been good to her and take good care of her.

 

[jrskblx125]

Hi Guys-

It's been several years since I've been on this forum. Hope you are all well.

I have a CK20 HST I bought brand new in 2006 that was manufactured in Korea in 2003.

I have had this machine dealer serviced for several years and then serviced by myself and brother since Kioti closed my original dealer and it seemed like every dealer in any kind of range to me. It seems the dealer support is still poor which is surprising given how great the economy is right now.

My CK20 HST just turned 700 hours today. I have the italian made DMM60 mid mount mower deck and I have been mowing every week with it for 13 years now.
I also use the bucket for plowing in the winter which we get plenty of that here in Lancaster, MA.

It's getting about due for HST oil / filters / front axle oil change and the other stuff I change regularly (engine oil, filter, fuel filter, air filter etc.). It has no leaks. I've even changed the radiator coolant last time we did the 6 gallons of HST oil / filters etc. I use all oil products from Tractor Supply -- diesel engine oil and the Traveler brand lubricants -- the hydraulic oil used is one of the ones listed in the manual as correct for the machine if I remember right.

Took the deck off to get ready for snow and added fuel w/ power service in it for anti-gel -- it is stored in a shed outside. about 32 deg. F here today so not tremendously cold.

After moving around a bit I noticed if I pushed HST pedal down to the floor (not too fast, but now slow either) there would be a good delay before the machine get going forward. Same w/ going in reverse -- perhaps a little better going reverse ... but gravity probably going with me.

High range has same problem... ok. Back to low and went over to a 10-15% uphill grade in my yard and it will stop dead on the slight hill w/ HST pedal to the floor as if fluid is bypassing something completely to the rear wheels. Check HST fluid level and it's full and essentially clear (no cloudiness or any sign of moisture in there). The HST does it's usual thing where I pull the dipstick and it's essentially dry -- let it set w/ dipstick out for 30 seconds, dipstick back in, pull it and nice bead of clear HST oil between the low and high marks and definitely right up to the high mark where it belongs, clean, and no moisture. Good there.

Did a bunch more testing and it definitely has a real problem and no way will be pushing snow like that.
Inspected pedal and high/low range lever and all seems normal. Went in and out of high/low range and checked pedal operation while off tractor and damper cylinder thing the pedal has and linkage under the foot deck all looks good. Pedal resistance while pushing in hi vs. low feels normal.

So I put in 4WD and bam -- its like it's old self again. I'm guessing it's just the front tires doing the work. This is great because I will be able to get it loaded under it's own power on my trailer to take it to a dealer for service as this is likely beyond my knowledge.

Do you guys know if being in 4WD could also cause the rear tires to drive better also (I doubt it) but wanted to ask. I'm thinking the 4WD whatever output shaft on the tranny that runs the front wheels the HST that drives that is fine, but whatever internal to the tranny that drives the rear tires is shot or a spun woodruff key type of thing or who the heck knows. I doubt it's a fluid level or filter clog issue as it does fine in 4WD and terrible in 2WD. I have not tried the differential lock ... my diff lock has always been a bit tough to engage, but it does work and has gotten me out of situations when one rear tire spins but not the other.

I can also confirm the clutch is fine because in 4wd I can mash the pedal pretty good and it takes off like it's old self since the front wheels are driving it like it should. Clutch is definitely not slipping and my clutch doesn't get much use since I'm an HST -- I only use the clutch at start and to engage the mower deck.

I will probably give Orchard Hill Farms a call -- it's the only dealer at all in range from me and it's about 56 miles away. I have a 16' trailer and vehicle I can tow it there.

Thanks for any insight here. I hope I can plow with it tomorrow on front wheel drive and then take her in next weekend.

So bummed she's got her first real problem in long long time. I've been good to her and take good care of her.

Theyre knowledgable down at orchard hill and great to deal with. I live in hubbardston mass and just got my machine ready for the impending storm as well! Good luck. I cant really think of anything else that you didnt check so i think dealership is the way to go.

 

[malk315]

Theyre knowledgable down at orchard hill and great to deal with. I live in hubbardston mass and just got my machine ready for the impending storm as well! Good luck. I cant really think of anything else that you didnt check so i think dealership is the way to go.

Hey neighbor! Did you purchase your CK3510 from them brand new in 2018? Sounds like a nice rig.
I get my OEM filters from them and they were around when my machine was new in 2006 and thus glad to have an experienced dealer still going in 2019.
They were very helpful during the great freeze (last year?) when it was like 30 below zero in the middle of the country and trucks were getting stuck on the side of the road.

I had my machine collapse the fuel filter which was getting gelled from the cold. Got a magnetic heater and stuck it to the tank to heat the fuel up for a while. It worked it's way down and voila. Orchard hill sent me a couple of filters and I changed it out. That will be the last time I forget to get some fuel treated with power service into it's veins before the bitter cold.

Will call them Monday and see if I can haul it out to them.

Will be curious if anyone else on here has seen a similar issue where it will drive the front wheels full power but the rear wheels... big nope. Definitely doesn't seem like a shaft spinning freely that shouldn't ... more like a fluid issue

Will report back whatever happens.

 

[DK35vince]

How is you rear tire pressure.
Rare, and likely not the problem, but I have heard of the rims slipping on the tire bead before.
But that would explain why it works better in 4 WD.

 

[malk315]

How is you rear tire pressure.
Rare, and likely not the problem, but I have heard of the rims slipping on the tire bead before.
But that would explain why it works better in 4 WD.

Rear tires are fine and filled with salt water for ballast. They haven't been touched in 13 years and have had no signs of leak or anything.
Going to check it a bit further more tomorrow before the storm. Will take a close look at rear rims ... 99% sure there is no problem there.

If I can't find anything obvious it will be heading to the dealer... got a bad feeling something is wrong internally with the tranny... hope there will be some solution even if it means investing some dollars into it... Maybe it's a malfunctioning relief valve of some sort.

Cheers.

 

[jrskblx125]

Hey neighbor! Did you purchase your CK3510 from them brand new in 2018? Sounds like a nice rig.
I get my OEM filters from them and they were around when my machine was new in 2006 and thus glad to have an experienced dealer still going in 2019.
They were very helpful during the great freeze (last year?) when it was like 30 below zero in the middle of the country and trucks were getting stuck on the side of the road.

I had my machine collapse the fuel filter which was getting gelled from the cold. Got a magnetic heater and stuck it to the tank to heat the fuel up for a while. It worked it's way down and voila. Orchard hill sent me a couple of filters and I changed it out. That will be the last time I forget to get some fuel treated with power service into it's veins before the bitter cold.

Will call them Monday and see if I can haul it out to them.

Will be curious if anyone else on here has seen a similar issue where it will drive the front wheels full power but the rear wheels... big nope. Definitely doesn't seem like a shaft spinning freely that shouldn't ... more like a fluid issue

Will report back whatever happens.

Yes bought from them over a year ago i believe but traded an older kioti and was given a fair price for it. Wife talked me into getting a cab (i let her think i really didnt want one LOL) but boy is it nice moving snow! I didnt have any issues with cold starts on new machine last year. It was in garage but running the additive makes the difference.

 

[malk315]

How is you rear tire pressure.
Rare, and likely not the problem, but I have heard of the rims slipping on the tire bead before.
But that would explain why it works better in 4 WD.

@DK35vince called it! I was inspecting everything further today and even topped off the HST a bit since it was low when cold and got it right at full mark.

Walking by the right rear tire saw some liquid on it... bam -- I could depress the pedal while off the machine and observed the rim slipping in the tire... good lord!

Left tire looks ok ... as we know w/o the diff lock engaged one tire will spin.

I'm going to put some air in it w/ the compressor to try and get it to bite the bead better but the calcium chloride water or whatever acts as a perfect lube ...

This is fantastic news because I can have the tire taken care of completely by my local JD dealer Padula brothers. They have a huge shop and service everything... they got me a new front tire when I wrecked the sidewall on one. My other front tire is pretty worn so while it's over there I'll have them change that other front tire. They are all Titan tires.

What a relief to know it's not some crazy tranny issue.

Will post an update -- gonna go mess with the compressor now.

Thanks @Dk35vince for the advice. I owe you a beer or 10

Cheers.