Cetme Rifle Questions

[rtimgray]

Hi - does anybody have any experience with a Cetme .308 rifle. I picked one up the other day (well used) and took it home to shoot. After loading the magazine and cycling the chargin bolt, it fired one shot, then failed to load the second shell. I cleared the jam, tried a different magazine (it came with 3 HK G3 surplus magazines), tried again, same result. I tried one more time, different magazine, different ammo, same result - except this time the shell did not eject and the next round in the magazine had the bullet (the actual projectile) jammed into the casing by 1/8 to 1/4" (keep in mind this is a .308 cartridge, so it was shoved in pretty good).

Anyway, I stopped trying to shoot and took it back to the shop where I got it the next day. The seller (very reputable - I was never worried about being stuck with a bad deal), said that the he had taken it on trade and it was very dirty. We called the former owner and he said that he had never had any problem. The seller then said that besides thoroughlyl cleaning it, all he had ever done was change a spring on the bolt assembly because when he got it, he had to put the butt of the rifle on the floor and bounce the gun on the floor in order to cycle the charging handle (he thought that was too much effort). Anyway, he replaced the spring, and now to load the rifle, you have to put the buttstock on the ground and give the charging handle a sharp hit to get it to slide. I took the gun back home and it fired through all three magazines flawlessly.

In conclusion, I like the rifle with the exception of the stiffness of the charging handle. Does anyone have any suggestions on a remedy for this? The seller has sold a few Cetme's before and didn't recall them being that hard to pull, but it has been a while. Any comments or suggestions would be greatlly appreciated.

Thanks and take care.

 

[Soundguy]

Sounds like an incorrect spring.

Just wondering.. you shootin' '308' regular stuff like at walmart.. or 7.62 nato loads.. like the rifle was actually built for?

As with any gun cycling or other problem.. I'd let a gunsmith look it over if i was gonna keep the arm.. no need for a unreliable gun.. it's dangerous.

soundguy

 

[TheHammer]

I have to agree with Soundguy - take it to a gunsmith and get it checked out.

I think Soundguy also hinted at the fact that there is a difference between the 7.62 NATO round and .308 Winchester round. I recall reading something about only firing what the rifle is chambered for or problems can occur. Maybe someone with some more knowledge than me can explain better.

Either way, don't take a chance - get it checked out.

 

[Jimbrown]

I do not think that the spring is the problem. It sounds more like the bolt is not unlockng from the receiver. The bolt must turn to unlock. I supect a damaged or improberly machined bolt. If you go here and ask that same question you migt get some better answers.
The Art of the Rifle - TheFiringLine Forums

and for what it's worth.
Firearm Review, July 2000

 

[rtimgray]

Hi all-

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

Both the rifle and the users manual (that I downloaded from Cetme) state that it is chambered for .308 winchester. The ammunition that I was using was 150 grain Winchester CX2 .308 winchester and some 140 grain brown bear .308 winchester (that's what it says on the package, not 7.62 x 51 mm or 7.62 Nato). I have read stuff from time to time and I think some folks conclude that there is some difference between the two and some say that for most weapons the difference is not enough to matter. I am not educated enough on the subject to have an answer,so I value the opinion of those of you with that knowledge.

At any rate, I believe that I was firing the correct ammunition. And I fired 3 full magazines of ammo once the problem was refectified (and now I have a different problem).

It is, more or less, a problem in breaking the charging handle free. It take a good "whap" to get it loose, then it cycles just fine. I tend to agree with the poster that it is something in the bolt assembly that may be sticking and not necessarily a spring-type problem.

I will check out some of the firearms forums - however, I can't do it at work because those forums are blocked (they are under the "militancy and fanatacism" blockade according to Websense!). Luckily, tractor owners don't qualify as militants or fanatics (obviously, this is a topic open for debate). I will try to check with the militants and fanatics at home (on my slow dial-up connection!).

Thank you all for your help so far. Take care.

Edit - The seller is a well-known/liked gunsmith/dealer (he's been in business in a small town 20+ years, so I guess he's alright). He dismantled the gun yesterday to change the spring and checked everything over and he couldn't find anything amiss. However, he also said he is not very familiar with Cetme's. I will dissassemble the gun and check out the bolt and receiver group and see if I see anything. I've read sometimes the parts just need to be gone over with steel wool, emery cloth or polished to get thing's smoothed out. That will likely be next course of action.

I agree with the comment that an unreliable firearm can be dangerous (my paraphrase). Thanks.

 

[RobJ]

I've read sometimes the parts just need to be gone over with steel wool, emery cloth or polished to get thing's smoothed out. That will likely be next course of action.

I agree with the comment that an unreliable firearm can be dangerous (my paraphrase). Thanks.

Sort of what I was thinking. Remove the spring and reassemble and then check for binding. Another good thing to help smooth it out is some Clover compound. Start with the fine grit.

I think the .308 and 7.62 are close enough to being the same. But the nato rounds are FMJ and will feed better in an auto.

Cool looking gun there!

Rob

 

[bigshovel]

If I am reading this right, You are having trouble closing and opening bolt? If that is the case I may have the answer. If i am reading this wrong ignore the following. If you have a replacement bolt in this rifle and it mic's longer than original that will shorten yor headspacing enough to cause a real tight closing and opening bolt. just a thought. I had a remington 673 guide gun that suffered from the same thing as you describe and it was definately the head spacing due to remingtons manner of abrupt replacement of the rifle, and written findings.

Brad

 

[Z-Michigan]

Several comments. I own a PTR-91, which is a US made and slightly improved clone of an HK-91, which is the civilian HK G3, which in turn is a slightly modified CETME. Got all that?

The operating system in these rifles is the vorgrimmler roller-delayed blowback mechanism. This mechanism is also used on the HK MP5, HK93/94, the Cz52, and I think one 1980's HK pistol. It is absolutely unlike anything else, unless you know what a FAMAS is which is the only thing I can name that is different but similar. The bolt does not turn, nor does it have a sliding or tilting locking piece like a Remington 870, Mossberg 500, or a FN-FAL. It is not truly locked in the way that most rifles are, though it is held in place by rollers acting on a locking piece, with spring pressure acting on that locking piece.

Most CETMEs sold in the US are heavily used, some bordering on worn out, ex-military rifles. The roller-delay mechanism does wear, and one common fix is to replace the original size rollers with a larger size as the recesses for them wear. Might try to figure out if that was done to your specimen. It is an OK fix, as long as the fit was right. The locking piece can also wear, and its angle and size are critical to function.

I don't think HK G3 mags are a perfect fit for the CETME. They may work, but I don't think they're identical to CETME mags. They are cheap and abundant though. It is possible you have a magazine incompatibility problem.

As a delayed blowback weapon, it is sensitive to the type of cartridge case. I think they prefer harder cases, and supposedly work fine with steel-cased Wolf. However, most US commercial ammo has fairly soft brass and that can potentially cause extraction problems because it molds better to the chamber and therefore sticks. (This is unique to the delayed blowback mechanism, and the fact that it doesn't happen in your bolt-action or gas operated semiauto is irrelevant.) I have so far been firing only military-type FMJ ammo in my PTR, with no real problems. I can however tell that the recoil varies depending how dirty the gun is. Unfortunately it also throws brass 30-40ft and creases the neck when it hits the ejection port, so even the empties I can find are probably not reloadable.

If your CETME is marked for .308 Win, you should be fine with either that or 7.62 NATO. They are slightly different, but hardly any rifles safe for one are unsafe with the other. The .308 Win is the higher pressure round, opposite of how it works in the .223/5.56mm cartridge. As some historical trivia, the original CETME was chambered for a reduced power round, though with the external dimensions of the 7.62 NATO. I don't think any of those made it onto the commercial market, and most or all were converted to fire the full power NATO round.

Anyway, for your current question, can you clarify that the issue is trouble opening the bolt when it is in the forward position? You pull the cocking handle and it's really hard to move? Believe it or not, my factory new PTR-91 is hard to open when the bolt is in the fully forward "locked" position. I can open it by pulling without putting the rifle butt on the ground, but it takes a lot of effort and I'm a big guy. I think that is a feature of the design. The bolt is much easier to open when I don't let it slam shut and therefore is not fully "locked", but I wouldn't try firing it like that. (If you do it anyway, though, I think the hammer will force the bolt into fully "locked" position simultaneously with the primer strike, so I think it would actually be locked at firing - but I'm not going to deliberately try it.)

On the other hand, if you are having a problem that the bolt is locking back and you have to hit the rifle to make it go forward, that's weird. As you know this design doesn't have a last shot bolt hold-open (there is the manual hold-open by rotating the cocking handle into the notch). Please further explain if that is the problem.

Not sure if you have tried disassembling your CETME yet, but be prepared for a battle to get the bolt mechanism reassembled. It can be done, but requires a LOT of finger/hand strength and some trying. Apart from that issue the rest of the stripping and reassembly is pretty easy.

Useful reference info:
Modern Firearms - CETME A, B, modelo 58, C Assault Rifles
Modern Firearms - Heckler Koch G3 assault rifle

 

[rtimgray]

Thanks Z-Michigan.

The problem is when the bolt/charging handle is in the forward position. I can pivot the handle away from the rifle, but absolutely cannot budge it backward. If I give it a sharp "whack" with my hand, it sometimes becomes free. If I hold the rifle with the barrel pointing up and tap the stock on the floor/ground, the charging handle breaks free and I can cycle the bolt (and that takes some effort too, but not too much).

I disassembled everything last night (except for the actually charging handle because it looked like there was a little bitty spring in there and I didn't want to take it apart without know how it goes back together).

Without the bolt being in the gun, the charging handle assembly was still occasionally hard to break free - almost like it is hanging up on a burr or metal or something. I looked and looked and looked and couldn't find anything. And it was not as difficult, because I could always break it free by hand, so I don't think that is all of the problem.

The spring that the seller changed was the spring that applies pressure the rollers that hold on the locking piece (I'm sorry I do not know all the proper terms, but now that I'm a little familiar with weapon, I know exactly what you are talking about). He had assumed that the spring was too tight (because of the difficulty pulling back the charging handle), so he changed it to a lighter spring. That's when I got it and discovered the feed/eject problems. At that point, the charging handle was relatively easy to pull back. After I returned it and he replaced that spring, the charging handle came to the state that it is now - but he rifle fires flawlessly.

I read some reviews that some folks tried G3 magazines and they didn't work and some said they did. After the spring was changed, all the magazines that I have worked fine (although to date I have only fire all of them completely one time - so it's still open to debate if they will work okay forever!).

I didn't have much trouble with dissassembly and reassembly, except I did have to use a screwdriver to reset (maybe?) the part on the bolt assembly with the rollers and spring. I also had just a little trouble getting the stock off, but that seems normal.

I also noticed, with the help of a flashlight, tiny crackes at the front of the tube where the charging handle rests. My assumption is that this is a result of many, many rounds fired through the rifle (the cracks eminate from the corners of the slot that the charging handle rides in). Is this anything to be concerned about?

In all honesty, if I have this rifle the rest of my life, I doubt I will run 1,000 rounds through it. I mostly got it because I have always liked the "style" of the G3 and I wanted something in .308 for potential deer hunting (I'm not a hunter but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express).

Once again, I really appreciate the help. Take care.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The problem is when the bolt/charging handle is in the forward position. I can pivot the handle away from the rifle, but absolutely cannot budge it backward. If I give it a sharp "whack" with my hand, it sometimes becomes free. If I hold the rifle with the barrel pointing up and tap the stock on the floor/ground, the charging handle breaks free and I can cycle the bolt (and that takes some effort too, but not too much).

This sounds very similar to what my PTR-91 (again, factory new) does. If the bolt is fully forward, I have to pull HARD to open it up; but after the first 1/16" of an inch it moves pretty freely. The pull-force required is orders of magnitude greater than on typical gas-operated or pure blowback semiautos. I think that is a factor of how the rollers lock. I don't have to ever whack the handle or rifle butt though.

You're lucky - on mine the tolerances are such that it's hard to even lift the charging handle in this condition. I do find it can be a bit easier to pull the handle back by having my palm up and using the pinky end of my hand on it - I can't explain why given that that's the weaker part of the hand. Maybe pulling with your index finger end tilts the mechanism? I also find that there is some clearance between the handle-connected inner tube (that acts on the bolt) and the outer tube (dust cover) and that probably doesn't help. If your CETME has greater clearance from wear, that might make it more difficult.

It's also possible that your CETME has a wear issue, most likely between the rollers and locking piece, but I don't have enough experience with the design to judge. I would take a look and see if your rollers and locking piece look worn or rounded off. They are very durable but don't last forever, and as I said, a lot of CETMEs were heavily used before they hit the US civilian market.

Without the bolt being in the gun, the charging handle assembly was still occasionally hard to break free - almost like it is hanging up on a burr or metal or something. I looked and looked and looked and couldn't find anything. And it was not as difficult, because I could always break it free by hand, so I don't think that is all of the problem.

That does sound like you may have a minor issue such as a burr. I would take the handle/inner tube out, clean both it and the outer tube, and lube both with a good gun oil (not too heavy). That might help.

The spring that the seller changed was the spring that applies pressure the rollers that hold on the locking piece (I'm sorry I do not know all the proper terms, but now that I'm a little familiar with weapon, I know exactly what you are talking about). He had assumed that the spring was too tight (because of the difficulty pulling back the charging handle), so he changed it to a lighter spring. That's when I got it and discovered the feed/eject problems. At that point, the charging handle was relatively easy to pull back. After I returned it and he replaced that spring, the charging handle came to the state that it is now - but he rifle fires flawlessly.

The spring you describe is the main action spring, and I'm not at all surprised it malfunctioned with a different one. I suspect that with that lighter spring, the bolt wasn't fully locking until hit by the hammer.

BTW, as far as I know the parts are referred to simply as rollers or locking rollers, and the locking piece (the triangle/quadrangle type piece that pushes the rollers outward).

I also noticed, with the help of a flashlight, tiny crackes at the front of the tube where the charging handle rests. My assumption is that this is a result of many, many rounds fired through the rifle (the cracks eminate from the corners of the slot that the charging handle rides in). Is this anything to be concerned about?

I am not 100% certain, but I think that tube is simply a dust cover and guide for the charging handle mechanism, so I don't think cracks in it will be a problem. You might want to post that question on a CETME specific forum though.