BX22 LA210 Loader cylinder stuck

[idrobnjak]

A little background. I recently acquired a slightly leaky BX22 and assuming I had a 3 way control valve on the loader i ordered all new hoses coming out of the control valve from the dealer. When I went to install I realized hoses are all different and that is when i went back to schematic and realized i had a 4-way C/V. I know, dumb of me not to even click on that pic to compare earlier but here I am. After examining everything I decided to use these hoses to connect my 4-way valve onto the loader as i couldn't find a difference in the schematic below other than quick-disconnects on the 4-way one for installing something other than the loader. See below pics, no difference. And as a tip for anyone looking for new hoses for their LA210 loader, you should be able to use the ones from 3-way control valve as they should be cheaper by a good margin avoiding all the quick disconnects and extra hoses.

3-way C/V hoses:


4-way C/V hoses:


I got all the hoses hooked up and paid special attention to make sure I connected the right control valve outlet to the right color rigid hose on the loader as they were before. As I was doing this, some fluid leaked out from lines and the right cylinder on the boom of the loader compressed a bit (but not my left one) causing the loader to sit crooked so I couldn稚 put the loader back onto frame properly. I figured, that is fine and I will just hook up hydraulics, run it and compress both cylinders all the way and then pull them back out. So my left cylinder was out while my right one had compressed a bit, I figured from some fluid leaking out while changing out the hoses. I finally got all the hoses and quick disconnects back together and got the tractor close and connected hydraulics and ran the tractor for a little while to get the pump running properly and pressure in the system up and hopefully work out any air out of the system (hopefully that is how that works?). Then using the control lever I compressed both cylinders all the way in, motion to lower the loader arms. To my surprise when I pulled lever the other way (motion to raise the loader arms) to pull them both out, only my right cylinder is coming out (one that was originally compressed), while my left one just sits there in the closed position. I still can't get the loader onto the frame of the tractor because now the left one is all the way in and that is making the angle of the loader arms impossible to properly seat onto the frame.

As always, this site and you people are a godsend and any help would be appreciated.

Could I have still made a mistake and connected something incorrectly to the loader control valve? I doubt it, but possible. The bucket dump and up motions work fine and my right cylinder does what it is supposed to. Is there a separate hydraulic line to the left cylinder control? It doesn't make sense to me since I would think same line would control both cylinders at the same time - one line to pump up both cylinders and one to deflate both of them with fluid. So assuming I go back and check all the hose connections and everything is the way it was before, what would cause the cylinder to stay in the closed position now when it was working fine before hose replacement? Fluid not getting in on that side or is something stuck inside of it? Obviously a rookie at all this.

Here is schematic of loader rigid lines, sure looks like same lines feeding both cylinders (20 and 30), and I only replaced the soft rubber ones coming out of the control valve. The other lines (50 and 60) feed the bucket control cylinder. So if one cylinder is operating the way it should, leads me to think i did connect all lines properly and instead something went wrong with cylinder itself. Could there be air in the system not getting purged by the pump or something? ugh, so frustrating. i thought i was finally done fixing up and ready to work and now this...

 

[rbarker]

I have had this similar situation occur a couple of times with my BX's but it has always cleared up by cycling through the full range. One side will stay put while the other "catches up". If that's not happening for you then I don't know what to try next.

Sent from my iPad using TractorByNet

 

[idrobnjak]

Thanks for the input. I thought that should have happened. When i pulled the lever in the direction to close it, it closed all the way, and so did the right cylinder which was a little closed already. But the left cylinder just stays closed when i motion to open it. Right one behaves normal.

Anyone else? I am just stumped as to what my next step is as I can't really find anything about it online. Take the cylinder off and take it to hydraulics shop?

 

[J_J]

When the cyl retracted all the way, did the relief activate [squeal]?

Those cyl are supposed to be in parallel, and they should both work together, however, one cyl may offer less resistance and retract the other.

If you install a hyd gage, you can use to monitor and trouble shoot the hyd system.

To see if you have the hoses correct, loosen the fitting on the cyl base and see if fluid flows out both fittings.

One sign of a leaking seal is one cyl will not develop the power to move the bucket. Fluid will bypass.

One other problem you might see is the nut on the piston has come off. The cyl might extend but not retract.

If the hoses are correct and you can not develop relief pressure, take the cyl apart and fix the seals or install the nut on the rod shaft, using Loctite purple.

 

[idrobnjak]

When the cyl retracted all the way, did the relief activate [squeal]?

Yes, it does squeal.

Those cyl are supposed to be in parallel, and they should both work together, however, one cyl may offer less resistance and retract the other.

Looks like this is what is happening

Ok, so messed with it more and moved tractor further back so the loader ends can extend further (past the point where they would hook up onto the tractor) to see if any life in left cylinder. After the right one was half way out, then the left one finally started moving out a bit. but right one was way ahead of it. then when I do the lower boom motion (close the cylinder), the right one closes much faster than the left one. So both are getting fluid, but one is working much faster than the other. Should i just get them aligned and mount them onto tractor and run them this way? This theoretically should make them work together with tractor mounts being the other side of the square frame, even though the right one is doing most of the job. Is that wrong to do? Will it stress the cylinders or the metal frame holding it together because one side is always pushing/pulling more than the other? I feel like a little bit of progress is here. Is there a place that can re-do these cylinders so they both work like new at the same capacity? I looked up new ones - $800 / piece. ouch.

 

[swatter]

I have never rebuilt a cylinder but after being bored one night I found myself watching YouTube. It was a lot simpler than I thought it would be. I plan on doing this when the time comes. I also watched a few where people explained how to measure and replace after market cylinders for a fraction of the price Kubota would want.

 

[J_J]

Try this.

A hyd gage would be useful to trouble shoot the hyd system.

Remove both hoses from the good cyl, and cap them. Also remove the cyl to bucket pin so fluid is not pushed out of the cyl.

Leave the weak cyl connected.

Now, extent and retract the suspect cyl and hold at each end and see if the relief goes off.

If you had a hyd gage, you would see the difference between a good cyl and a leaking cyl.

 

[idrobnjak]

swatter - thanks for the tip. I looked it up on youtube, and you are right, doesn't look very difficult other than finding where to obtain new seals.

J_J - I think I am following you in your instructions. My only thing is what to use to cap the lines off the good cylinder while not in use. I don't think those plastic hose caps will hold once pressure in the system, and surely you are not telling me to use my thumbs to cap the ends :confused2:

Also, what will it mean if the relief doesn't go off - that it is a leaky cylinder inside and definitely needs rebuilt?

should've bought a new tractor... :duh:

 

[idrobnjak]

when you say pressure gauge - will one of these work?

 

[J_J]

Yes sir, that gage will work.

A hyd metal cap or plug for the hoses.

If the relief does not go off at the end of the stroke, that means that the seals are weak/worn, or the pump is not up to spec.

 

[idrobnjak]

ugh. so i managed to line up the loader arms square and get it onto the tractor without doing anything to cylinders. Now it goes up and down the way it should, or at the very least the way it used to. More than likely the right cylinder is doing most of the work and the left one is trying to keep up, but you can't tell now that everything is moving together up/down. Will it hurt something if the right cylinder is doing most of the work?

Now, just as I thought I could go and get some work done, a new problem cropped up. the bucket will not raise, only dump. It will not raise even a little bit. So as I was messing with it, little by little, now it is in the all-the-way dump position and will not come back up at all. And I know my bucket worked just fine before, whereas i cannot guarantee my loader cylinders worked in sync before (it only seemed like they did). And my loader control valve when running tractor and trying to move loader is leaking a ton of hydraulic fluid from what looks like the relief valve on top and it is running down the back of the control valve and coming down onto chassis. Could my control valve be clogged up somewhere inside? not allowing any fluid to one side of the bucket cylinder and creating excess pressure resulting in relief valve leaking from the top?

Although i thought I read somewhere these units don't have a relief valve on the loader control valve, only the main one over by the main hydraulic pump under the seat of the tractor. And now looking at picture of Husco 9210 from their site, what they say is relief valve looks nothing like the one I have. Everything else looks the same, but where they say relief valve is - it is a lot shorter and kind of looks sealed on mine. Soooo. what the...

Husco 9210:


Mine:

 

[rbarker]

ugh. so i managed to line up the loader arms square and get it onto the tractor without doing anything to cylinders. Now it goes up and down the way it should, or at the very least the way it used to. More than likely the right cylinder is doing most of the work and the left one is trying to keep up, but you can't tell now that everything is moving together up/down. Will it hurt something if the right cylinder is doing most of the work?

Now, just as I thought I could go and get some work done, a new problem cropped up. the bucket will not raise, only dump. It will not raise even a little bit. So as I was messing with it, little by little, now it is in the all-the-way dump position and will not come back up at all. And I know my bucket worked just fine before, whereas i cannot guarantee my loader cylinders worked in sync before (it only seemed like they did). And my loader control valve when running tractor and trying to move loader is leaking a ton of hydraulic fluid from what looks like the relief valve on top and it is running down the back of the control valve and coming down onto chassis. Could my control valve be clogged up somewhere inside? not allowing any fluid to one side of the bucket cylinder and creating excess pressure resulting in relief valve leaking from the top?

Although i thought I read somewhere these units don't have a relief valve on the loader control valve, only the main one over by the main hydraulic pump under the seat of the tractor. And now looking at picture of Husco 9210 from their site, what they say is relief valve looks nothing like the one I have. Everything else looks the same, but where they say relief valve is - it is a lot shorter and kind of looks sealed on mine. Soooo. what the...

Husco 9210:
<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=336829"/>

Mine:
<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=336830"/>

Wow what a mess you've got going on there! I'd be willing to bet its all related, not really a new issue. I don't have any suggestions but hopefully one of the hydro gurus will be able to offer you some advice.

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[ozley]

In that picture it looks like the o-ring has blown out under the plug.

 

[idrobnjak]

so just took kid to soccer and got a little bit of time away from all this to clear my head. gonna take a break for the night and tomorrow again take apart the control valve setup and hoses off of it and see what's up. ozley - you might be right, that may be a blown o-ring. This is my C/V:

The "Shut Off Assembly" is part number 50 so that piece that fits under the nut could be the issue. That would explain leakage from up there and could be responsible for some pressure loss in all this, but I don't see how it may be related to my bucket not lifting up. Unless someone else has some suggestions, after I take apart tomorrow, clean (again) and put back together hopefully it will work. If not, I may look into sending this C/V for a rebuild - found a place up in Akron, OH. New one is $800, so hopefully these guys will rebuild it for significantly less than that if I end up doing that. Fingers crossed for a miracle overnight :/

 

[J_J]

I could be wrong, but that hex nut assembly on top by the spool shaft looks like a plug that they use when that valve is used in a closed center hyd system, otherwise, no relief

Most open center valves have a working relief.

I see no shims or adjusting nut.

Now as far a rebuilding that valve, you can get a new loader valve with float and regen from Surplus for about $241 and you will need the PB adapter also.

Surplus Center - 2 SPOOL COMPACT 10 GPM JOYSTICK CONTROL VALVE

Surplus Center - BRAND POWER BEYOND KIT

Surplus Center - 2 SPOOL 14 GPM PRINCE LVR JOYSTICK LOADER VALVE

Looking at this PDF, it looks like you have what is called a SHUT-OFF plug instead of a relief valve. A direct acting relief valve will have some kind of adjustments. Read the PDF and you will see the relief valve you should have.

http://www.huscointl.com/wp-content/pdf/9210.pdf

Is this a factory valve or did someone get one off Ebay and install it?

 

[BXpanded]

The BX22 has no pressure relief valve in the control valve. The PRV is in the side of the trans inside the right rear wheel.
Parallel cylinders almost always move separately when they aren't attached. The one with the least internal friction moves first. If you continue to extend, the other will "catch up" when the first one hits resistance or the end of it's stroke. They are doing equal work when attached to the loader as the friction difference is negligible in operation.
I don't have enough info to guess why the bucket won't curl other than the possibility that the lines are connected incorrectly.
The BX22 valve comes off with the loader in most cases. Some late production units were built, or were adapted with a kit, that lets the valve stay on the tractor when the loader is removed. Which do you have? If the valve stays on the tractor, you have 4 quick connects. It's possible that one is not seated completely. Take them loose and re-install.

 

[idrobnjak]

The BX22 has no pressure relief valve in the control valve. The PRV is in the side of the trans inside the right rear wheel.
Parallel cylinders almost always move separately when they aren't attached. The one with the least internal friction moves first. If you continue to extend, the other will "catch up" when the first one hits resistance or the end of it's stroke. They are doing equal work when attached to the loader as the friction difference is negligible in operation.

Thanks, that re-assures me my tractor won't blow up with the way i put that back together.

I don't have enough info to guess why the bucket won't curl other than the possibility that the lines are connected incorrectly.
The BX22 valve comes off with the loader in most cases. Some late production units were built, or were adapted with a kit, that lets the valve stay on the tractor when the loader is removed. Which do you have? If the valve stays on the tractor, you have 4 quick connects. It's possible that one is not seated completely. Take them loose and re-install.

I have the kind that stays on the loader when loader removed. And it is a 4-way control valve and used to have the 4 quick-disconnect work hoses, but since I thought they were leaking I replaced them. But I replaced them with straight hoses without quick disconnects - ones designed for the 3-way C/V setup. Looking at diagrams discussed in the first 2 posts of this thread, there is no difference in routing these hoses other than quick disconnects between the two. I have checked at least 7 times to make sure everything was connected correctly from the C/V to the 4 working ports on the loader (blue/red to the bucket cylinder, white/yellow to the boom cylinders). I am 100% I connected them correctly.

Work has been kind of crazy lately and I haven't gotten around to it but my new shut-off cap and the o-ring for the Control Valve came in to dealer and I picked it up. As mentioned tonight or tomorrow I plan to again disassemble the control valve housing and take the C/V out to see if I can see any obvious obstruction in the outlets where the blue/red hoses go in which control the bucket cylinder. It does take a while and messy with all the fluid leaking out, but while doing this I plan to replace the shut off cap/o-ring so hopefully that leak stops. And holding my fingers crossed that once i put all back together, it is all working and not leaking any longer! I am hoping to get to that point by this weekend.

Thanks to all for the help. I look forward to this chapter being complete.

 

[idrobnjak]

Ok, just got around to doing some work today. Took hoses off the C/V and put it on a workbench. Replaced the shut off valve that seemed to be leaking, and when taking off the old one didn't really notice anything wrong with it, looks weird in that pic because the black paint that was over it was chipping. That had me thinking - oh ****. Then poked the c/v outlets responsible for bucket with a skinny hex thingy. then cleaned and re-assembled it back onto loader and reconnected all hoses. If this didn't work my next step was to call the dealer to come pick it up and figure it out.

Fired it up, got it warm, increased the RPM's raised the boom and (after saying a prayer) curled the bucket. Couldn't believe it. Works just fine now. And with replaced hoses and shut off valve, no more leaks either. I was so happy, took it for a ride around the neighborhood.

So just wanted to say thank you to everyone that helped me out in this forum. Couldn't have done it without the great people and all the info contained in this forum. But then again if I never started reading these forums I would have never thought I needed a tractor and would never be in this mess to begin with... Thanks again.

Well, no more leaks in the loader section. Still have the tiny drip to contend with over at the main transmission case but that is least of my worries now since that one is such a small drip, i only notice it after it has been sitting in one spot overnight. Even then it looks like about 10 drops of Hydro fluid. Over a week it adds up, but, like i mentioned, maybe a wintertime project to figure that one out.

 

[radioman]

:thumbsup: