Buyers Remorse

mark777 · Jul 24, 2004

It would seem that the situation concerning new tractor owners, having purchased imports from S.E. Asia has prompted many (very many) emails & PM's, and frankly I am at a loss for some of their questions.

Most often I refer them to the parts suppliers who are well established-and do this by their area in relation to the customrs location. The most recent question was: "Am I supossed to have four in line fuses attached (and taped) to the bottom of my fuse block?" "The dealer said they often do that to insure electrical safety" Wow. After initial shock I asked if there were any accessories, lights, winch, anything like that? "Yes, I got a rototiller with it".

For me, it's difficult to just blow them off. I did verify that it was not private party and it is a tractor not imported from Japan. Recognized the dealers name almost immediately.

Difficult to help, as now they are intimedated and many will not post-ask for help openly. I try and always respond with: I am not an expert but.....

For fear of beating a dead horse, I do wish there was one descriptive, well though out answer that states (warns) of what may happen. Maybe something that signals the potential owner with "BEFORE YOU BUY".... Personally, I am trying to help, not bash, and as of yet never said I told you so.

Regards, Mark

LMTC · Jul 24, 2004

Mark et al,
Ditto and ditto. WHY oh WHY do people keep buying from sources that offer no follow up? ( I did verify that it was not private party and it is a tractor not imported from Japan. Recognized the dealers name almost immediately.
) Whether wholesale or retail, your supplier/dealer should be of help to you.
( For me, it's difficult to just blow them off. ) I understand the feeling, however.....try a minimum of 3-4 calls/week with an average closer to 10/week for several years, plus the emails....and perhaps it becomes understandable why we don't deal with those calls. They are almost always "library calls"--How does this work, what does this do?--and the vast majority won't even spring the few $$ for a manual.

I KNOW there are other dealers like us, who supply follow up. Yes, we are higher priced than the scrap tractors. Our customers get: a packet we assemble with general maintenance info, general safety info (and links to lots more), filter crosses, fluid specs, and a parts layout. They also get our undivided attention when they call/email with a question. And we make it clear we expect questions. In the rare instance we haven't had the answer to a service question, we get the answer...we don't send the customer off surfing the web. Maybe that's why so few of our customers ever show up on bulletin boards.

99% of the people who shop us ask "where do I get parts/service" in their first visit. Are others not asking? Are the sellers lying? Why would you buy somewhere knowing they cannot/will not support your purchase?

Inspector507 · Jul 24, 2004

Because they're probably being told "It's the same as a John Deere, all parts are available there"

I was told that on more than one occasion, and did not look back on my way down the road /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tractors4u · Jul 24, 2004

Sometimes people buy from the guy that tells them what they want to hear. A while back I had a guy looking at a YM1700 I had. He asked if it had live PTO and I told him no. He then told me that the guy out on the highway had a 1700 and his had a live PTO. I told him that it didn't. He said yes it did and that he would rather have the one with live PTO. Before he left I told him to make the seller demonstrate the live PTO. These S.E. Asia tractors look real pretty and they are cheap, that is all an uninformed buyer needs to see.

mark777 · Jul 24, 2004

EXACTLY.

I wonder if the highway 1700 had the optional inline fuse safety enhancements?

kayssupply · Jul 24, 2004

The first couple of years I sold tractors, I made a third of my income from it. The last year I made almost nothing. I now repair and service the other guy's tractors. I at least get to tinker with tractors. I really enjoy them. The market has changed so much in the last few years it has taken the fun out of it. That is the way retail goes. If it isn't WalMart it is someone else cutting into your profit. You just have to adapt. One guy can't change it back to how it was. If the changes make it as unprofitable for you as it did me, adapt or find a new business before it makes you crazy.

mark777 · Jul 24, 2004

Guys.....I will not go quietly into the night. No insults intended.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if I read between the lines; Your business suffered from the import of tractors from S.E.Asia and the price increase of imports directly from Japan.

We are all suffering to various degrees. I think that's how the discussion started - and adapting is what I, and others, are trying to do, Make the transition.

I am small by comparison and the bigger your operation the more you have at stake.

Stop complaining? Get over it? Do something else? Well, that's one way of looking at it.

normde2001 · Jul 25, 2004

Seems to me you guys are confusing "used tractor lots" with "dealerships". I don't believe I would expect anything from a "used tractor lot" except a tractor, little or no warranty, no parts, no service, maybe a " have a nice day".

California · Jul 25, 2004

I've been thinking about this.

It seems to me that the established dealers who are hostile, or derogatory, to innocent newbies aren't helping the situation.

As Mark notes it's a new market now with a flood of cheap rebuilds arriving. American reconditioners can't compete with Vietnamese wages, minimum wage there is $45 per month and I'll bet most of that reconditioning work is done at minimum wage.

And these reconditioned tractors have a month of labor in them as I figure it - Vina's website says their VN reconditioning facility has 300 employees and reconditions 4000 tractors per year. That's an output of 1.1 tractor per employee per month. Those employees aren't just sitting around, they are working desperately hard if those shops are anything like the Nike factories that made the news a couple of years ago.

With this cost differential the reconditioning is inevitably going to shift offshore.

So... I think these new buyers, the ones that Mark says are fearful to ask questions after they decide they have been ripped off, should be welcomed into the family of Yanmar owners. The first time they call an established dealer they should be told what 'everyone' knows, that a complete tractor includes a manual with operating instructions and safety info as well as a parts manual. I suppose you can add 'don't call back until you have read the manual' if you want.

That customer will soon learn there are several mail-order dealers on the internet who can supply nearly anything. It's not in your interest to turn him away the first time he calls.

By the time that buyer calls, it's too late to warn them about different rebuild qualities and unsupported models. Ridiculing them at this point isn't going to strengthen the Yanmar image overall since they will just complain somewhere else.

Perhaps that model specification page that many dealers have on their website should identify the unsupportable models to guide the newbies away from buying them and dry up demand for them. In another thread someone noted that YM1600, YM1900, and YM2200 have poor parts availability. I've seen another (former) poster say he would never knowingly import a Hinomoto because parts are no longer made. This sort of information has to be out there while the newbie is researching a potential purchase - no use telling him after he has one.

And on a lighter note - someone needs to offer an improved fuse panel. Mine was original but the cover was in the toolbox because it wouldn't stay attached. The headlight and turn signal fuses were gone and I couldn't find replacements locally. Those tiny screws fall on the shop floor the first time you unscrew them since they are shorter than expected- I can't imagine changing a fuse out in the middle of a rice paddy. Overall, a bad design.

I put ring terminals on inline fuse holders so I could attach them to those original screws, and that's as close to authentic as I thought it deserved.

Here's an opportunity for someone to market a new replacement part: a fuse panel with modern blade fuses.

Norm: just saw your post as I was about to post this. Yes, that's the essence of the issue - there are dealers selling and supporting good used Japanese tractors who have an opportunity to provide support to the orphan rebuilds that are sold on Ebay and from roadside lots. In my opinion it doesn't make any sense to shun the orphans.

wb4oqx · Jul 25, 2004

A general purpose blade type fuse box is available at many auto parts stores. Put one in my YM2200 and was even able to use the mounting holes from the old box. Love my 2200 despite the effort required to locate parts, and it was probably a Vietnam rebuild. The price was right and they fixed most of the problems. I would probably have a different reaction if I was not a shade tree mechanic though. Many thanks to all the folks on these forums who support the grey market Yanmars.

LMTC · Jul 25, 2004

I have read for several years now how it makes no sense to shun the orphans. That concept has been restated many, many times---by retail buyers. I invite any of you to go into business and service these machines and these customers. You have no idea of the myriad drawbacks and pitfalls that make that not profitable in our experience and in my opinion. Some of those drawbacks have been discussed in other threads, and before anyone counters them I suggest they try to run a business in this market to learn if these drawbacks are valid. The VAST majority of owners of these machines who contact us want FREE help. We offer them manuals....if they buy them, we will go from there. I would venture to say we have sold perhaps 5 aftermarket owner manuals this year, in response to a minimum of 5 contacts per week.

Occasionally I used to tell a caller that for a $50 deposit they could have one hour of my mechanic's time on the phone.....I no longer do that, as NO ONE ever took me up on the offer, and many cursed me. I also used to offer one hour's worth of diagnostic time for the same money, here at the shop. No caller wanted that (and most were not even close enough for it to be realistic)....they wanted free advice. We are NOT a charity. I cannot afford to put a mechanic on the phone everytime someone wants to ask questions about their tractor's problems. Our tractor customers own us for life. Others have to buy a piece of our time. Why be upset with us for not servicing the piece of junk you bought elsewhere rather than being angry with the guy who sold it to you? (and I'm not saying posters here are, but way too many of the people who call us about this do get angry with us)

Tractors4u · Jul 25, 2004

( Seems to me you guys are confusing "used tractor lots" with "dealerships". I don't believe I would expect anything from a "used tractor lot" except a tractor, little or no warranty, no parts, no service, maybe a " have a nice day". )

It just depends on the person behind the counter, or tractor so to speak. I sell from my front yard. A friend of mine imports and I get my tractors from him. I always supply what I call a "mini owners manual" in paper and electronic form. It covers the operation, maintenance, and safety do's and don'ts. The local Massey dealer has called me on more than one occasion when they were trying to help a customer with a grey market tractor. I had people call or e-mail years after the purchase with questions or parts needs and I helped them out. I like tractors and selling them is a natural extension of that interest. The people who hurt this trade the most are the one's you are talking about Norme. They are the ones who don't know diddly about tractors and got into it because it looked like an easy way to make good money.

1danny · Jul 25, 2004

I don't know why anyone would say that parts availability is poor for the YM1600, YM1900, and YM2200. We have a lot more parts for these tractors than the F & FX models.
Danny
Parker Equipment Co

California · Jul 25, 2004

( Ask yourself why the 2200 (and 1600, 1900, 2700) are found primarily at the VN recon dealers and not on the lots of those of us who "deal" in the grey market tractors. If your seller is not going to supply you with parts, who do you think will? )

Here's the source for my quote.

This seems to be a difference of opinion between two reputable dealers (and frequent posters), each with plenty of experience to base their opinion on.

Please folks, nothing to see here. Lets move on to discussing who might support those orphan buyers. They probably are going to pester everyone in the industry. And lets not turn this into a criticism of those dealers who do, or do not, chose to serve them.

It is perfectly reasonable for some dealers to consider the orphans too much nuisance but I think there is also an opportunity here to identify those dealers that the orphan owners might turn to.

TBN has been a valuable source of information for me, and I hope this thread can document some useful information that we all can refer the newbies to. It aready has an ideal title for that!

(edited to quote your entire paragraph) Wayne, I guess I misunderstood this to mean the buyer would have trouble finding parts.

LMTC · Jul 25, 2004

I had already written the post below when I read California's second post. I can see how you might make that assumption from my post, but I did NOT say parts were hard for those four models. The issue of many VN recon sellers not supplying parts is an additional issue to the one that they also sell a lot of models not brought in by others. One just followed the other in my post.

Like the old party game of "Telephone", each repetition of a statement seems to cause a mutation. Recently in another thread I wrote ( Ask yourself why the 2200 (and 1600, 1900, 2700) are found primarily at the VN recon dealers and not on the lots of those of us who "deal" in the grey market tractors. ) as a rhetorical question. I am guessing the remark earlier in this thread was a reference to that.

Fact is, not many importers are bringing in those 4 models. Lots of reasons, age being one. Yet some of those models seemed to be much more prevalent among the VN recons, at least the units I saw coming from HD and those I have seen at auctions.

SteveM · Jul 26, 2004

I dont think there is a real solution to the orphan tractor owner's problems. First, remember they bought the cheapest tractor they could find, so that probably means they are going to balk at the idea of paying for service. Second, these people dont know ANYTHING about tractors typically, so live PTO might as well be a vegetable dip....

I agree with LMTC - these folks are not likely going to comprise a profitable relationship. But here is what will happen:

1) They buy a shiney junk tractor with mis-matched internal parts. Very hard to work on.
2) It breaks, they have no where to turn
3) They eventually give up and sell the broken tractor very cheap.
4) Some patient, knowledgeable guy buys the tractor and slowly corrects the mechanical problems, pumping probably 50 hours and $1,000 to get it into reliable shape.

Now the tractor is ready for work, and the guy can sell it for $3,000 and get some of his labor back (but not at commercial shop rates).

My opinion...

shvl73 · Jul 26, 2004

I didn't take the original post's as trying to alienate other purchasers. It seems Mark777 is willing to help, just frustrated at the lack of knowledge some buyers have & the amount of time their questions take up. LMTC's also seemed willing to help. Some of the customers (who bought elsewhere) just don't seem to understand they run a for-profit business (how can they fail to understand this?) and time is $. People looking for free help should turn to forums like this one & find a good local repair shop if possible, but pay the going rate.
At least that's my take on it.

California · Jul 26, 2004

Ok, maybe I'm just chasing a rainbow and my perspective doesn't match the real world.

What I hope to see is enough information posted here so that the buyers of these orphans can maintain them. This would also serve as a warning to prospective customers of ebay auctions or roadside lots.

There is a model on TBN for this: in the Chinese Tractors forum I see reference to Chinese Tractors Owner's Association (CTOA). Apparently support is so bad for the buyer-imported Jinmas that a manual-writing project is underway by the owners.

There's a tradition in the internet community for this sort of grass-roots project, Linux is the best-known example. I've posted my original Yanmar-USA dealer brochures in my sig photos in the same spirit, to share what (little) I know with other owners.

Maybe this isn't the right thread to pursue my topic since it started out discussing how dealers are getting hammered with the same newbie questions. In that post I noticed how those buyers are too intimidated to post here.

I think the answer is self-help encouraged by the Yanmar community rather than for them to pester dealers they will never pay. I'm an optimist, I hope that after buying documentation and finding access to parts most of these buyers will evolve into pleased owners.