Burying brush debris

Anonymous Poster · May 13, 2003

I've been clearing 5 acres of Florida land and have about 35 big piles of pepper tree and wild grape vines. The grape vine root system comes up as a mat with lots of dirt; there is also a lot of dirt in the root structure of the trees. We've tried shaking and rolling the dirt out of the piles, but there is still too much dirt for the piles to burn effectively. Hauling the stuff off is not an option due to cost. Chipping it is not a good option because of too much preparation work to get the stuff ready for a chipper.

A land clearing contractor has offered to bring in a large track hoe, excavate, and bury the debris. This is the fastest and cheapest way I can get rid of it. He will use a very heavy dozer to "walk" the trash into the holes, compacting it considerably, then back fill with dirt, mounding the dirt a couple of feet so it will level out as the brush decomposes and setlles.

Before I sign on the line and commit to this, I'd like some of the TBN folks to chime in with experience or opinions.

Richard · May 13, 2003

are you building on it, or is it going to be in a field?

If building on it, I'd say that's a strict no no, but I presume you know that.

Personally, if it were me, I'd let it sit out for a while (I still have couple piles approaching 2 years old under similar situation) and let it dry out some and attack it when dry to try to remove dirt and burn it later.

Then again, I'm one that has taken his backhoe over the couple acres near the house to remove all stumps that remained from when the woods were "selectively cut".. Wifey thinks I'm nuts and should just leave them, but my feeling is, do the work now, fill the holes and be done "forever" with them, rather than having to deal with them again and again as they rot away (and create a depression in your case).

Just depends on how much effort you want to do "now" verses over time.

My vote, keep working piles & burn them

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BB_TX · May 13, 2003

No experience here. But, I think I would side with Richard. I would think as the material decays, it will settle unevenly, leaving the nice smooth mounds looking more like a motocross track.

rancar · May 13, 2003

How do you know those vines will not re-root and grow again after being buried for a time? This would be my concern. How about just soaking these piles in diesel or kerosene and torching them. I've had considerable brush and stumps with dirt attached. After a time of drying, these piles go up like a flaming banshee regardless of the amount of dirt that's intermixed.

...Bob

Anonymous Poster · May 13, 2003

I presume those pepper trees are Brazillian Peppers, the famous "Florida Holly" variety. No way do you want to bury those--except in the form of ashes.

I vote for piling 'em up, soakin' 'em down, and playing firebug. Blame sugar burning over in Glades country for the resulting pall. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

You'll probably need a permit. Some folks in that part of Florida actually get them----well, I've heard they do. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SnowRidge

gerard · May 13, 2003

If burning isn't an option I don't see a problem with your idea as long as you don't mind leaving the land to settle. If things settle a little unevenly - so what? You MAY have to bring in some fill or do a light re grading -that's what tractors and blades are for!!! I just wouldn't plan on having nice finish grass there (ie wouldn't make the bury pit part of my backyard), until some time has passed and I saw how it was settling.

Anonymous Poster · May 13, 2003

SnowRidge - yep, Brazilian Pepper, but they're pretty dead - out of the ground now about 5 weeks. Also, see next.

rancar - I think the stuff will be buried too deep to reroot. And, the vines are also pretty dead. Maybe 5 weeks isn't long enough. One pile for an example. Lifted it with the gruib rake and shook it - lots of dirt came off. Rolled it with the rake - lot's more dirt came off. Placed loosely in the pile and "fluffed up" with the loader. Soaked it in diesel for several hours; put some fresh diesel on it before lighting. Lit it. Whoosh! Instant ash. Right where the flames were. it didn't spread. the vines burned too fast, nothing else got started. Moved it, rolled it, fluffed it, and started again. Same thing. Two solid days - 14 hours on the tractor - one pile 80% gone - 35 larger piles to go.

Richard, I want to get it done, now. I'm one of the best in the world for putting off until tomorrow what I could have done today, but I'm really trying to turn over a new leaf and finish one job before I start another. Of course. all my life my wife has been begging me to finish one job first, and now she wants me to push these piles aside and deal with them later. Problem is, it's the house that's going to be at the back of the property, and the brush piles that would be out front - huge eye sore.

BB_TX - I'm concerned about uneven settling, too. That's one of the reasons I asked this question - looking for all the things I might have missed. Uneven, I can handle. Too low, I'll have to bring in some fill.

This is one of those questions that almost answers itself, especially when you consider the track hoe is going to be on my property anyway to dig my pond, and the open space where the debris can go is next to the future pond. A small amount of it can go directly in the pond to serve as fish structure, but I have too much brush and too small a planned pond to do it all that way.

I guess I should revise the question to ask, is there anyone who can give me a really compelling reason NOT to to it this way? I've had one local person say it's illegal, but I think they're talking about construction debris and/or garbage. I couldn't find anything in the ordinances. It's all organic, so it doesn't seem immoral. And, I don't think it's fattening. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Taylortractornut · May 13, 2003

Don on right of ways and other projects here that now dont allow brush to be buried or piled on the side. We take excavators dig holes and piles the brush in and a felloo with and air curtain destructor comes in its a big *ss fan with a diesel tank and a 4cylinder motor on it. Its a controlled burn nothing but ash left and you can use one hole for several piles. They use them here during no burns becaus they and draw a vaccumm and slow a fire down. then you can have non settling holes and plenty of ash to spread around. the main concern with burying that much debris is our yard had a Civil War era road behind it and the previous owners in the 70's burried all the logs and brush off the lot in it and buried them. 15 years later the litte stuf rotted out and we had under grounf caverns that mom fell up to her was in and dad had a 580 case almost go over the cab. Had to dig down the dig 12 deet belaow the yard to hard ground and remaove all the logs and brush and refill the yard..

sendero · May 13, 2003

Ok, I don't know squat compared to most of the guys here, but I wonder why burning it isn't the best option.

Your description of the futility of burning it reminds me of a "no wind" situation. I've burned a boatload of brush/tree piles and one thing I have found for sure is that if there isn't at least a 3-5 mph wind, forget it. No matter how much diesel you pour on the pile, it takes air to make the fire spread.

While burying it might well "worK", you will be waiting for *years* to know how well it worked. I for one do not have that kind of patience. I'd prefer to deal with something once and for all /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anonymous Poster · May 14, 2003

Just learned today of another temporary nail in the coffin of burning. Our local Div of Forestry has issued the first burn ban of the season because we haven't had significant rain for several weeks. It might get lifted for a short time, but the betting is that the ban will be in effect until August. The method mentioned above for burning in the hole might get approved, but it's way beyond our capabilities.

Looks like it will get buried. Fortunately, the Florida sand will not support the kind of caverns that were mentioned; it will settle in nice and slow.

Now, my work is cut out for me in a new direction. All of a sudden, the debris will be buried and the pond will be dug, and I have to know now exactly where all the fill needs to go, because part of the deal is that the contractor will haul, spread, compact and grade the fill as it comes out of the pond.

I think I'm getting a good deal. I've seen prices of $1 to $1.50 per yard to excavate ponds at many sources, but it doesn't include handling the spoil. I'm paying $2.50 per yard, but everything will be done - house pad, barn pad, road build up, and some low areas filled and compacted - all at the same time. We'll be moving between 1600 and 2000 yards.

Burying the debris is a separate deal, but uses the same machinery. The dirt will be excavated, the brush pulled and walked in, the dirt will be replaced and compacted, all for about $900. I figure wear and tear on the tractor, tractor fuel and fire-starting diesel would run about $10 per pile, and with 35 to 40 piles, I would spend almost half of that, plus all the ime consumed. Hauling was estimated at 30 truckloads @ $150/load or $4,500; chipping would be somewhere in between.

The contractor will be bringing in a trackhoe with a 53' reach and a 1.5 yard bucket, a D6, two loaders with rakes and at least 2 20 yard dump trucks. It will all be done in a few days. My head is spinning.

Looks like that surveyor's level, tripos and rod I bought on EBay is going to get a real workout in the next week or two. Everything has to be staked out so they know where to put the spoil.