Are better manuals available anywhere?

[psj12]

I just received a Kama 554 and I am agast at the poor quality of the manuals. From what I read here this is a common problem with all chinese tractors.
Are better manuals available anywhere? I would like real maintenance manuals on teardown and rebuild, to include the engine, and operator's manuals with illustrations or pictures.
Someone with the entrepenual spirt could probably make a buck or two producing these for sale in CD form over the internet. They should be written in english (not pigeon) and written from experience like chilton's etc.

 

[Maka]

Most peopel who buys these are buyingthem for the price. The manuals are poor, I agree but what should one expect. If someone did spend the time and effort to put together a real service manual, with excellent illustrations, tear down and rebuild, torque specs etc. it would cost a fortune in time, effort and materials.

This effort would translate to a costly end product and probably would not pay off for the effort. That is just mt .02 on the issue.

Thanks,
Maka

 

[beenthere]

Maybe you can contact the company and get the Chinese version and have it translated, then you can make the profit from the sales.
What do you think the market would bear for price and number of copies needed?

I paid about $75 for my Deere CD that includes the CUT's. I know that the first year in production, the 4000 series (other than the 4100) turned out 43,000 tractors from the Augusta plant (when Deere planned for selling about 14,000 /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif ) so there was a potential for selling quite a few CD's. Any idea of the number of Chinese tractors of the size/model you have that would need the CD manual? Just guessing (my son's quartet made a CD and the minimum initial investment was $5000 to get the first run) but I would imagine the preparation of the material from Chinese to product would be in the $25,000 range plus production costs of say $5k. At $75 a copy, that would need a market of at least 400 some to cover the cost and about 800 to return $60,000.

 

[JINMA224XR]

<font color="blue">Are better manuals available anywhere? I would like real maintenance manuals on teardown and rebuild, to include the engine, and operator's manuals with illustrations or pictures.</font>

Hey PSJ,

Jim is supposed to be working on getting some better manuals, over at http://nortrac.proboards26.com/index.cgi.

Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[JohnS]

Not sure what Kama has, but the Jinma manuals I received with my tractor, included an Illustrated Tractor Parts manual, Illustrated Engine Parts manual, and an Operators manual for the engine and one for the tractor. I agree with the English translation, but it is entertaining at times. For the most part, using the available manuals, taking careful pictures and measurements on disassembly, along with the great support (especially dealers) on this and other forums, is enough to make most repairs. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have better manuals, and would pay $100 for a set, for good ones specific to my tractor/model.

I agree with the other responses that third party manuals are probably a money loser. Even if you pick, what is the most popular chinese tractor/model, the Jinma 254/284, the quantity that you would most likely sell, is relatively low. The initial development cost would be very high. Consider that Chilton's always has a good factory manual for a base. It would take a good amount of time, just to verify what is in the current factory manuals, is indeed correct. I remember long, long, discussions on valve lash on the Y385! Also, a manual developer would have to take into consideration, all of the available options and impacts, along with new changes. I would guess a ROM for this initial effort at 1-2 man years. An experienced technical writer and illustrator would be at least 50K a man year. Subbing it will add more costs, but you get a better mix of tallent and experience.

I also don't see the big Jinma dealers, such as Nortrac and Homier, investing in the development of that level of manual. If they did spend that kind of money, I doubt that it would help their bottom line sales numbers, in any meaningful way. If you have watched the posts here and on other tractor forums, you know that it is usually a hard sell to convince someone to go with paying more, from a very experienced and knowledgable dealer, vs picking one on the lowest cost. If they had a detailed manual, many would still buy the low-cost tractor, and then maybe the manual from them. It takes allot of manuals to make up for the loss of a tractor sale.

 

[dogfarm]

PSJ12

Maybe we need to take the bull by the horns and collectively do it ourselves! Like you, I just got my Kama 554 - at the end of November - and feel a strong need for better manuals. Chip at Artrac, where I bought my Kama, has been a great help in answering my questions both on the phone and via e-Mail. But a lot of customers calling for help has got to be taxing on a dealer's time. Reading TractorbyNet is also a great help due to all the tractor owners who are willing to contribute their expertise, experience, and opinions. Some of the opinions are quite strongly held and make for entertaining discussion threads. But sometimes it's tough to remember where you read something.

Maybe the manufacturer will improve the manuals over time, but that's a big if. Hoping for a third-party to engage in a massive labor of love to produce a comprehensive manual that will never sell more than a few copies is probably a forlorn hope.

There is, however, a "wiki" technology that allows information to be collaboratively created by a set of interested people. The information can be organized in such a way as to make it resemble an on-line manual. The "wiki" technology will enable the amount of information to grow as contributors submit their bits of knowledge. The really neat thing about wikis is they are open to general comment,so if someone disagrees with something, they can speak up, or if something is incorrect they can correct it. You can subscribe to changes to an article that is near and dear to your heart. Then, if someone posts an inaccuracy as a change to an article, it can be caught and corrected.

I would envision a Chinese Tractor Repair Wiki which would have a general section on commonalities among Chinese tractors, with specific sections on individual manfacturers (Kama, Jinma,...). Under each manufacturer, articles could be posted about adjustments, repairs, diagnosis,etc. For example, not being a diesel mechanic and not having an engine parts manual to even see what the decompression mechanism looks like, I had a heck of a time removing and replacing the valve cover on my Kama 554. As part of an article on valve lash adjustment, I would post what I found to work in releasing the decompression lever and lining it up to get the cover back on. Guys who work on diesels all the time wouldn't think twice about how to R&R a valve cover, but other newbies might find this interesting and helpful.

The wiki manual would allow information that is stored in various TractorbyNet threads to be linked to in an organized manner. People who found threads to be informative and relevant to a subject could add a link, growing the knowledge base. Over a short time, participation of people asking questions and knowledgeable tractor owners responding, would far exceed the meager info provided by the Chinese manufacturers and would be a whole lot more readable. Over a longer period, the knowledgebase could become very comprehensive if use of the wiki manual catches on.

Wikis have been criticzed as opening the door to inaccuracies due to their open nature. A recent study by the British scientific journal Nature showed that wikipedia, the wiki equivalent of Encyclopedia Brittanica is as accurate on science as the venerable encyclopedia. The comparison did show that the wiki entries could use help in editing as they were often poorly written. But anything has got to be better than some of the stuff in our factory manuals. And improvements by contributors/editors are readily made.

Maybe we can start a thread to kick the idea around some and maybe even experiment with it though the wiki.com website.

 

[dogfarm]

The website is Wiki website (not wiki.com) - Sorry!

 

[psj12]

I like the idea of the WIKI but I am not a computer guru and having visited some of the links provided in Dogfarm's posting I am not really sure how to set one up or administer it. It would have to be done by someone with knowledge and experience.

 

[dogfarm]

Try this link that deals specifically with Wiki books. Wiki books homepage

I'm just learning about this stuff myself, so I don't know much and don't understand all that I know...

 

[dogfarm]

I started something

Wiki book Request added to WIKIBOOKS: REQUESTED WIKIBOOKS