Adding a 2nd water pump question/advice?

[tawilson]

Now I have a shallow well pump, clarifying filter and water softener supplying my house, which has an upstairs apartment. I'd like to boost the pressure and volume, as taking a shower upstairs and downstairs at the same time is a problem. I have a couple extra shallow well pumps, a 80 gallon fiberglass storage tank and an 80 gallon bladder tank. I'm sure my flow problem is at least partially caused by the filter/softener cutting down flow. I would like to put the 2nd pump after them with one of the tanks for storage for it. Should I just use the bladder tank? Or use the fiberglass tank, maybe with a vent in the top so it won't get negative pressure if we are trying to use more water than the 1st pump can supply? I have a submersible pump I plan on putting in the well this summer, but would leave the booster pump setup.

 

[WayneB]

Now I have a shallow well pump, clarifying filter and water softener supplying my house, which has an upstairs apartment. I'd like to boost the pressure and volume, as taking a shower upstairs and downstairs at the same time is a problem. I have a couple extra shallow well pumps, a 80 gallon fiberglass storage tank and an 80 gallon bladder tank. I'm sure my flow problem is at least partially caused by the filter/softener cutting down flow. I would like to put the 2nd pump after them with one of the tanks for storage for it. Should I just use the bladder tank? Or use the fiberglass tank, maybe with a vent in the top so it won't get negative pressure if we are trying to use more water than the 1st pump can supply? I have a submersible pump I plan on putting in the well this summer, but would leave the booster pump setup.

I am not sure if you would be able to supply enough water to the second pump to get the flow rate needed for the upstairs apartment?

Just wondering:

What size pipe is coming from your well pump to the pump
What size pipe going to the filter setup?
What is the pipe size going to the upstairs apartment.
What is the pressure setting on the controller of your pump?
Do you have two separate hot water systems?

I am not sure if you can draw water from a storage tank to feed the second pump and then be able to replenish what you are using while drawing water for the downstairs shower? The main pump can only supply a certain amount of water at any given time to the filter system. It would seem that the pipe size would dictate the amount of flow?

You might be better off adding a second pump and drawing water directly from the well. This would require a second filter and softener, but it would be two separate systems. If you do not have a second hot water tank, then I would think you would have to add that also.

 

[tawilson]

Thanks for the reply, Wayne. It's something I've been thinking about, and last night thought I'd throw it out to the bros and didn't make it too clear. I want the second pump to feed the whole house. The storage tank will be filled from the first pump through the softener system. I'll keep the flow throttled so it can't run my well dry. The softener system is 3/4" and I'm sure that's where the bottleneck is. I guess my question is how do I set the 80 gallon tank up so it will fill from the first pump, and will allow water to be drawn from it during the high usage times. Will a vent like I have in my boiler system allow air back into the tank when I need the water and would it be big enough? Maybe I don't even need the storage tank and can just use the second pump to boost the pressure to the 80 gallon bladder tank on the other side of the pump. It's oversized but it's what I have. I've got a campground with a mile or so of 3/4" poly strung around and use that setup to boost the pressure to the bathrooms and the sites on the upper end.

 

[tawilson]

I went to the Bell & Gossett site and looked through their literature. The automatic air vents have a steel ball in them which will prevent air from entering the system. It sounds to me like I need to use the vent in conjunction with a vacuum breaker.

 

[tawilson]

The storage tank I planned on using was setup as a setttlement tank for a chlorine pump, which I stopped using when I got the clarifying filter. So to start my project, today I was going to remove the tank and get things rearranged the way I want them. When I cut the 3/4" copper line in the riser coming up from the pump/bladder tank, I found it was plugged up with iron. the whole riser had only about a 3/8" inch hole in it. I replumbed this less than 10 years ago, and used copper so I never even thought about the lines getting plugged. Apparently I need to put a blow off valve at the bottom of the riser. I didn't have the fittings onsite to replumb, so I tore everything apart, cleaned it out, and finished the plumbing operation. I ran the showers upstairs and down and things seem to be better. I did notice the pump stayed running instead of cycling on and off now. We'll see how things go in the morning. Problem may be solved.

 

[BobRip]

The storage tank I planned on using was setup as a setttlement tank for a chlorine pump, which I stopped using when I got the clarifying filter. So to start my project, today I was going to remove the tank and get things rearranged the way I want them. When I cut the 3/4" copper line in the riser coming up from the pump/bladder tank, I found it was plugged up with iron. the whole riser had only about a 3/8" inch hole in it. I replumbed this less than 10 years ago, and used copper so I never even thought about the lines getting plugged. Apparently I need to put a blow off valve at the bottom of the riser. I didn't have the fittings onsite to replumb, so I tore everything apart, cleaned it out, and finished the plumbing operation. I ran the showers upstairs and down and things seem to be better. I did notice the pump stayed running instead of cycling on and off now. We'll see how things go in the morning. Problem may be solved.

My neighbor had the same problem with plastic pipe. It would fill up evey year or so. He ended up putting in a larger plasitic and now replaces it every two or three years. Another option is to put a chrlorine injection system at the well. It dumps a tablet into the well approximately every 2 minutes of pump run time. This makes the iron combine with the chlorine and settle out into the bottom of the well. I have one of these. I do this to stop tanic acid, but it also works for iron.

 

[tawilson]

My well isn't that deep, and I'm hesitant to have all that stuff settle there. I did have the fire department come up a few years ago and flush it out. If everything is working ok now, I think I'll just replumb from the pump to the softener and add in a blowoff at the bottom of the riser and enough unions so I can take it apart and inspect and clean every couple of years. When I put it back together today I changed the 3/4" to 1" right up to the softener.

 

[Steve_Miller]

Tom,
Just trying get a mental picture in my head of your setup. Do you have a pressure tank in the house now? If so, what capacity and type (bladder or non bladder) is it?
Just guessing, but 10 feet of height is only going to be about 4psi in the difference. I think you will be much better off to add capacity to your system with tanks than to add another pump. You say you have an 80 gal bladder tank to use, this tank should give you approximately 20-25 gallons of usable water at a pressure switch setting of 40/60 psi. If you need additional capacity add another bladder tank as close as possible to the main draw of water to alleviate piping losses which may be hurting your system now. You can add a booster pump and that may not solve your problem as the piping (sized to small for the flows needed) could be an issue if there are multiple draws happening at the same time. If you can find a spot to add the additional tank there are some other things that you can do as well. First if you do add a tank upstairs and there is one main feed that supplies the second floor, tee the tank into this and put a check valve on the incoming side, this way the feed side can't rob any flow back and the second floor will maintain the pressure even if the downstairs is drawing water, unless it is being drawn from on the second floor. Another thing is that the lower you keep your pressure settings on your pump switch the more capacity your pressure tank can supply. As well keep the bladder type tanks air pressure at 2psi less than your cut-in pressure as this is very critical with a bladder tank. Sorry to babble but sometimes it help, other times I waste others time. Any other questions don't hesitate to ask, i'd be more than willing to try and help.

Steve

 

[tawilson]

Thanks a lot Steve. My setup now is: shallow well pump-appr. 30 gallon bladder tank-clarifying filter-softener-then to the house which is split to feed each level separately. The pump is in the basement so total lift to the second floor is around 22'. I could easily add the 80 gallon bladder tank between the softener and the house plumbing. Maybe after the tee to the second floor would be better. I've got my pump set at 35/55 psi, but I see what you mean about a lower psi giving you more room for storage in your bladder tank. Right now, I will see how things work after cleaning out my lines. If it doesn't solve the problem, I'll stick the other tank in. The second floor is fed with only a 1/2" line, which isn't good, but when I'm not using water downstairs, is ok. I have thought about adding a small bladder tank upstairs. I understand what you are talking about with the check valve, I have the campsite setup the same way, except with pumps. Thanks again.

 

[BobRip]

My well isn't that deep, and I'm hesitant to have all that stuff settle there. .

I had the same concern and they said the volume is very small. However your solution I think is better, cheap, no chemicals to add, and not much maintenance.