4344 starting problem

[Sackett2]

Well, I have one working hour on the Montana and have a I have a issue.
First I have no owners manual. It will be sent to me this week.
After doing some playing around, I parked it and the wife asked a question. I went to restart the tractor and the lights go on but the starter doesn't engage.
Now I am a certified auto tech, so this stuff doesn't scare me.
I jumped the wire to the starter solenoid and the tractor started up. I found a relay that "clicks" when the key is turned and tested it, it's OK. Its as if there is a safety lockout, stopping the start cycle.
If i had a wire diagram I could go a bit farther.
Is there anything basic I am overlooking that prevents the tractor from starting? if I had a manual I'd be looking up this information.

as a side note I discovered the seat safety switch has been cut/bypassed. Not bad for only 4 hours on it.

 

[TedLaRue]

Steve,

I know how frustrating it is to have the knowledge but lack the documentation (e.g., circuit diagram). But I think you've probably already identified the problem: a safety lockout.

Here are some possible lockouts you might not have thought of (various tractors will have various combinations of these lockouts): PTO must not be engaged, seat must have weight on it (you already checked this), transmission must not be in gear, brake must be on, clutch must be down...

With your knowledge and experience, you're ready to tear into it, but it's probably something simple.

And by the way, I'd recommend un-bypassing that seat safety switch. That's one safety switch I'd never disable.

 

[Sackett2]

I will properly fix the seat switch as soon as I solve the starting issue;
I already have a work around planned until I can figure it out.
It's a HST, so the clutch and trans are not a issue, the PTO switch I only just touched trying to solve the problem, the seat switch, didn't get voltage yet, that tells me something....
Wish I had a wire diagram...

 

[TedLaRue]

For what it's worth, a hydrostatic transmission (HST) usually has a safety switch on the brake.

 

[Sackett2]

Problem solved.
the PTO switch was moved from the "Interlock" (center position) to the "off" position, and it will not start there. The third position is the "Indep." position
Can someone enplane them to me?
I don't have a owners manual yet.

 

[TedLaRue]

Problem solved.
the PTO switch was moved from the "Interlock" (center position) to the "off" position, and it will not start there.

Are sure you didn't say that backward? Surely the PTO switch was not in the "off" position when the tractor wouldn't start. The tractor should start only if the PTO switch is in the "off" position. They wouldn't want you starting the motor with a brush hog engaged, for example.

The third position is the "Indep." position
Can someone enplane them to me?

I believe your three switch positions are:

• off - PTO is non-functional
• on but with seat safety interlock switch included in the circuit (so if you're not on the seat, the PTO won't run
• on but independent of the safety interlock switch included (so you can run a PTO driven water pump, for example, without having to put weight on the seat to defeat the safety switch)

I think the "interlock" and "indep." labels are a little confusing, but I can't think of any better short labels.

 

[Sackett2]

Oh, I know, it was in the "Off" position, and that is why I had the dash apart testing the circuits. Untill 6 hours later, I hadn't even had a need to try the PTO. The pto (on my tractor) will not run until you put it into the "indep" position, ( I'm learning about brush hogs and shear bolts now!)
I cannot tell you if I'm doing something wrong, the tractor is doing something wrong, or if we are both doing something correctly and the manual isn't in my hands to tell me...
I believe your definitions of the switches are what the dealer told me, however, I'm not sure they are acting correctly.

 

[TedLaRue]

Steve,

Are you sure you tried the PTO in the "Interlock" position when you were sitting on the seat? If you're not on the seat (or if for some other reason the seat safety switch isn't closed) the PTO would only run in the "Independent' position.

I wouldn't recommend running a brush hog or any other pull-behind PTO-driven equipment unless the switch is in the "Interlock" position and the seat safety switch is working properly. I'm not a safety nut, but this is a good safety feature that isn't inconvenient, so there's nothing to lose and a lot to be gained. The thought of getting run over by a brush hog or a roto-tiller gives me the creeps.

 

[Sackett2]

I will double check tomorrow, but I currently stand by my statements. if it isn't operating correctly, the seller will be hearing from me.
The seat currently is hot-wired on, and i will fix it tomorrow or Monday at work. I need to remove the safety switch from the seat so I can soder and heat shrink it correctly. Some Yahoo at a Southern Oregon dealership cut the safety switch on a 4 hour old piece of equipment that was up for sale. go figure.
thank you for your explanations of the systems; the tractor is making more sense to me every day.
OTOH, having the dash apart I have a good understanding of the electrical system and wires of this tractor now, I hope I don't have to use this information anymore...

 

[JackMentink]

If I was you I would make the dealership get it all as original. I could see the dealership saying you were messing with the switched and wires so we are not going to cover it under warrentee. Leave it alone and let your dealer earn his keep under the warentee.