Wal Mart disaster relief.

/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #121  
I don’t know the answer… only that I was surprised at how much power out city Fire Chief has in a very broad way…

Last week the Fire Chief called in air support for a 5 acre hillside Fire 100% inside urban city limits… C130 tanker and helicopters with water.

He ordered the air space closed to aviation except for air support for the 5 alarm wild-land interface zone.

33 years ago to the day 3000 homes in city limits lost in a similar situation
When you're calling in C130 tankers and helicopters to fight a fire, it makes complete common sense to to have the air space closed.

However, if it's one or two days after a major flood and you have one helicopter at your disposal to try and help, does it make much sense to close off the air space when you don't have any help in the air to begin with?

Worst case, close the air space and use that dang helicopter at your disposal until more air support can arrive.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #122  
When you're calling in C130 tankers and helicopters to fight a fire, it makes complete common sense to to have the air space closed.

However, if it's one or two days after a major flood and you have one helicopter at your disposal to try and help, does it make much sense to close off the air space when you don't have any help in the air to begin with?

Worst case, close the air space and use that dang helicopter at your disposal until more air support can arrive.
Reminds me of the time a police officer was running after a much younger guy and I happened to be driving by in my pickup…

I stopped and yelled jump in and the officer hopped in and I sped up a block and half and he jumped out and waived me off…

I wasn’t commandeered but my assistance was greatly appreciated…
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #123  
I wasn’t commandeered but my assistance was greatly appreciated…
If you have help and it wasn't asked for, as long as you aren't endangering yourself or your help, common sense dictates you use that help.

One could argue that when that police officer hopped in your truck bed, unless he was restrained in that truck bed, you guys were breaking the law ;)

Of course you used quick thinking common sense given the environment(y)
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #124  
If you have help and it wasn't asked for, as long as you aren't endangering yourself or your help, common sense dictates you use that help.

One could argue that when that police officer hopped in your truck bed, unless he was restrained in that truck bed, you guys were breaking the law ;)

Of course you used quick thinking common sense given the environment(y)
Yep… I could see he was running out of steam and my step side made it a no brainer.

It’s like people stepping up to pull fire hose or open a hydrant when signaled.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #125  
It’s like people stepping up to pull fire hose or open a hydrant when signaled.
Or some people parking directly in front of a fire hydrant and not figuring out that the fire hydrant may be kind of important if needed...


End of day, one thing I still remember from college is the peter principal.

Thing is, let the management go on the peter principal, and we still have stupid people roaming the earth in higher than normal averages IMO.

These stupid people can sometimes be in power over others, be it locally, by state or federal goverment :ROFLMAO:
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #126  
Can a local fire department chief make decisions for a federal agency, such as setting up a no flight zone?

Lake lure has a population of 1,500 people. They show to have 2 full time fire fighters with 23 part time firefighters. I don't know the process, but I'd be scratching my head if every local fire department could set up a no fly zone and exactly how that is communicated with the FAA.

What I do know in the civilian world is give a guy a "badge" with power and be careful. Know nothing about flight regulations, but I do get asked about local codes pertaining to my industry. I always start off by telling someone that I can tell them what the code is, BUT... even if you're right and the county inspector is wrong, it will get you no where but to put a target on your back if you prove the inspector wrong because he can make your life miserable down the road. Better or worse, the way a lot of people are wired.
The incident command system is set up based on occupational qualifications and training. An incident commander on a federal incident management team could be a local fire chief, a federal forester or firefighter, or a state forestry person. The jobs on the team are the same way. Annually the teams are assembled. When a local authority requests an incident management team, they sign a document with the incident commander giving operational control over to the team. When the team has the incident under control, another document is signed turning management jurisdictions back to the local authorities. During the ongoing management of an incident, local authorities attend daily strategy meetings to interact with the team.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #127  
The incident command system is set up based on occupational qualifications and training. An incident commander on a federal incident management team could be a local fire chief, a federal forester or firefighter, or a state forestry person. The jobs on the team are the same way. Annually the teams are assembled. When a local authority requests an incident management team, they sign a document with the incident commander giving operational control over to the team. When the team has the incident under control, another document is signed turning management jurisdictions back to the local authorities. During the ongoing management of an incident, local authorities attend daily strategy meetings to interact with the team.
And that's a condensed description of NIMS.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #128  
I have Not read all the way, but I have skimmed much of the thread; and there is a fundamental misunderstanding of FEMA by many people.

FEMA doesn't Do anything; they reimburse the local government agency (state, county, city). FEMA doesn't clear debris, direct contractors generally, plan, or frankly coordinate.

Nobody wants to hear this; but the counties and the states Should have been more prepared, and had emergency contracts in place, material stockpiles, cut and toss crews, ect.

We jump through hoops down here in FLa for storms, and 90% of the time, we send the emergency contractors home with their base mobilzation pay, release the material stockpile holds, and pay the reserve fees, ect.

Now, I know they could Not have been ready ready, but they should have been more ready...
 
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/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #129  
I'm not trying to kick them while they are down; but GA, Alabama, N. Car, S. Car, Tenn, (and probably your local state if your outside the area), really should take a long hard look in the mirror, and have a real "lessons learned" from this. Sure, it's a 1 in 100 year event, but they didn't seem ready for a 1 in 50; or a 1 in 25 year event.

Maybe a bit biased, but... are people starting to rethink who actually should be considered a "first responder"? Utility workers, road workers, ect have to respond before fire rescue/ems/LEOs; but don't get the hazard pay, "special risk" retirement, or even the dang 10% discount at Bass Pro...
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #131  
I'm not trying to kick them while they are down; but GA, Alabama, N. Car, S. Car, Tenn, (and probably your local state if your outside the area), really should take a long hard look in the mirror, and have a real "lessons learned" from this. Sure, it's a 1 in 100 year event, but they didn't seem ready for a 1 in 50; or a 1 in 25 year event.

Maybe a bit biased, but... are people starting to rethink who actually should be considered a "first responder"? Utility workers, road workers, ect have to respond before fire rescue/ems/LEOs; but don't get the hazard pay, "special risk" retirement, or even the dang 10% discount at Bass Pro...
Three states where hit. All where hit really bad. Florida and Tennessee where ready for it, and they have been very good at responding to the damage. North Carolina wasn't prepared, and their response has been very disappointing. FEMA seems to be getting the most blame for the incompetence of North Carolina leadership. The Governor of North Carolina is probably the person most responsible for getting things done in his state, and so far, he's not been up to the job.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #132  
Three states where hit. All where hit really bad. Florida and Tennessee where ready for it, and they have been very good at responding to the damage. North Carolina wasn't prepared, and their response has been very disappointing. FEMA seems to be getting the most blame for the incompetence of North Carolina leadership. The Governor of North Carolina is probably the person most responsible for getting things done in his state, and so far, he's not been up to the job.
May I ask how you came to the conclusion that Tennessee was ready for Helene and NC was not and how the reaction was different from the state government?

Last week driving across the state lines between NC and Tennessee up above Boone, I really didn't see a difference myself between the states as far as clean up and repair.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #133  
Georgia has and had a lot of damage, as well as inland South Carolina too; although I haven't seen much from S. Car, beyond the initial power outages. I have seen pictures of inland Georgia, and it destroyed a lot of hog barns, damaged a good number of homes, and downed a ton of trees too.

But, yes, 100%, FEMA is a tool, but it's primarily a tool to get things paid for after the fact. Your first group responsible is the state and local. Now, the small towns have no way to really deal with, so the state should have taken a leading roll. They really should have had some emergency contractors already mobilized, road base material stock piled strategically close to, but accessible from outside, near know trouble areas. The water main in Asheville, I don't know enough to comment on. Maybe the dams should have drawn down leading upto it, but the people blaming the dams are fools. Yes, opening the spill ways flooded hundreds, but if they didn't, they would have Killed thousands.

As an example, I thought it was Frances with an E, but maybe it was Mathew, or one if the others, about 7-9 years ago, a Lot of old folks died in nursing homes because of power outages. Turns out, immobile people, in 100 degree weather, stuck in bed, don't last long. Hospitals had back up generators, but many small assisted living places did not. Now they have to; and there was a surge with that new regulation in getting gas service to elder care facilities.

I dont know what the ending death toll from Helene will be, but if we count it with the deaths that were indirectly caused by it, I'm guessing it will be over 1000
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #134  
I'm seeing posts from people on Facebook that live in both states, including my wife's daughters and their dad's family in NC . Tennessee doesn't seem to have anywhere near the same level of need that isn't being taken care of like NC has. I'm sure the damage is worse there, but everything that I've seen is based on how hard it is to deal with all the government people in NC, and in Tennessee, it seems to be getting done without all sorts of government interference.

Also, there is a guy from here that has made three runs to both states to deliver materials. First run was mostly water, food and clothing. This run is mostly a semi flatbed full of heaters, blankets and jackets. He is broadcasting live from his truck going there, and showing what he sees. He only stopped in Tennessee once on his first trip. Now he's going right past there and into NC because he doesn't think they need his help there as much as they do in NC. I'm sure it's because they where hit harder, but you can see in his video that Tennessee is more organized, and there is a lot more stuff in Tennessee then NC.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #135  
Trust me (or dont), your local state DOT, and your local Public Works departments know where their likely trouble spots are. Sure, 100%, there are always surprises, but they already know, this embankment has erosion issues, bridges that are already needing replaced as part of general upgrades/lifespan issues, ect.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #136  
I'm seeing posts from people on Facebook that live in both states, including my wife's daughters and their dad's family in NC . Tennessee doesn't seem to have anywhere near the same level of need that isn't being taken care of like NC has. I'm sure the damage is worse there, but everything that I've seen is based on how hard it is to deal with all the government people in NC, and in Tennessee, it seems to be getting done without all sorts of government interference.
Keep in mind, there were 6 counties in Tennessee that were affected by Helene, total population of those counties combined around 275,000 people (total state population 7.1 million).

There were 28 counties in NC that was affected by Helene, and Buncombe county alone (where Asheville is located) has at least 275,000 people (total state population 10.8 million).
Wen't up last Saturday to help, going up this weekend again with the church, and no issues.
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #137  
Georgia has and had a lot of damage, as well as inland South Carolina too; although I haven't seen much from S. Car, beyond the initial power outages. I have seen pictures of inland Georgia, and it destroyed a lot of hog barns, damaged a good number of homes, and downed a ton of trees too.

But, yes, 100%, FEMA is a tool, but it's primarily a tool to get things paid for after the fact. Your first group responsible is the state and local. Now, the small towns have no way to really deal with, so the state should have taken a leading roll. They really should have had some emergency contractors already mobilized, road base material stock piled strategically close to, but accessible from outside, near know trouble areas. The water main in Asheville, I don't know enough to comment on. Maybe the dams should have drawn down leading upto it, but the people blaming the dams are fools. Yes, opening the spill ways flooded hundreds, but if they didn't, they would have Killed thousands.

As an example, I thought it was Frances with an E, but maybe it was Mathew, or one if the others, about 7-9 years ago, a Lot of old folks died in nursing homes because of power outages. Turns out, immobile people, in 100 degree weather, stuck in bed, don't last long. Hospitals had back up generators, but many small assisted living places did not. Now they have to; and there was a surge with that new regulation in getting gas service to elder care facilities.

I dont know what the ending death toll from Helene will be, but if we count it with the deaths that were indirectly caused by it, I'm guessing it will be over 1000
As a hospital we have backup generators which for decades tested weekly under load... now they are tested monthly because weekly testing was deemed a pollution source to eliminate.

We also have standing fuel contracts that proved worthless when needed...

When PGE did the powered safety shutoffs our supplier said a week and I said we have a contract and the reply is that's why only a week.

I gathered all my tractor 5 gallon jugs and shuttled back and forth...

The best of plans too often are not worth much in times of need

We currently are cancelling surgery because the Baxter facility Helene damage... 1.5 million daily bottles of solution capacity gone... maybe restored in a few months...
 
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/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #138  
As a hospital we have backup generators which for decades tested weekly under load... now they are tested monthly because weekly testing was deemed a pollution source to eliminate.

We also have standing fuel contracts that proved worthless when needed...

When PGE did the powered safety shutoffs our supplier said a week and I said we have a contract and the reply is that's why only a week.

I gathered all my tractor 5 gallon jugs and shuttled back and forth...

The best of plans too often are not worth much in times of need

We currently are cancelling surgery because the Baxter facility Helene damage... 1.5 million daily bottles of solution capacity gone... maybe restored in a few months...
I gather that the Baxter is much worse than that from my wife who was speaking with Baxter representatives last week. They were predicting years to get back to full production use to contamination from flooding. Imports will help, but aren't a full solution.

All the best,

Peter
 
/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #139  
I gather that the Baxter is much worse than that from my wife who was speaking with Baxter representatives last week. They were predicting years to get back to full production use to contamination from flooding. Imports will help, but aren't a full solution.

All the best,

Peter
The prediction is by the end of the year supply should stabilize…

Other facilities stepping up plus importing from outside the country and conservation through allocation.

The supply on hand reports are gathered daily.

Patients are pushing back because scheduled surgery is being cancelled with no new date offered.

The Ortho Docs are loosing a lot of cases because of the shortage…

3 cancelled today for Thursday and for many procedures a lot goes into the prep and recovery and now we are saying no can do at this time.
 
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/ Wal Mart disaster relief. #140  
Trust me (or dont), your local state DOT, and your local Public Works departments know where their likely trouble spots are. Sure, 100%, there are always surprises, but they already know, this embankment has erosion issues, bridges that are already needing replaced as part of general upgrades/lifespan issues, ect.
Yes they know. But ... my wife worked in the branch that prioritizes the many competing demands for funds, in state DOT. She says the funding and staffing requests from the DOT Maintenance branch always get put second behind the priority of spending gas tax money for new construction, now mostly widening for more traffic lanes. Because reducing congestion is what the motoring public is demanding of their elected representatives, and this demand filters down to the budget decision makers.

So, Maintenance is left to get by with whatever they can accomplish with less funding than they requested. This leaves them with after-the-fact mess cleanup instead of the preventive maintenance they know is needed.

And - in the broader perspective - more lanes and other means of improving capacity, encourages developers to build new housing farther out from where jobs are, because now the commute time from out there has become reasonable. Then a decade later all the new commuters from out there demand more capacity because the congestion they caused has made their commute unreasonably long. So they put pressure on the legislature to make them a priority. This has been the model ever since the beginning of the California freeways. Your Tax Dollars At Work! :)
 
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