To till or not to till 😁

[1930]

Help me to decide
Try to keep short
Foundation is 18 thick, dug down and removed approx 10 inches of sugar sand.
We get large amounts of horse manure dropped off free throughout the week, regardless of what google or scientists say we have had very positive results, ( we literally have thousands of plants growing on another property using the stuff that will one day come over here ) ( and we are feeding at least 1000 here on this property)
Pure sugar sand, very low nutrient levels in itself ( it’s been tested )
We’ve been placing this manure/shavings/hay mix around the house by the bucket full.
If we lay it about 20 + inches thick we figure in a couple/ few years we will end up with 4-5 inches of premium soil.
We look at the forest around us and note the pine tree’s that have been there hundreds of years with thick ( 4 inches ) compost at their base but under that pure white sugar sand.
We don’t understand why the soil isn’t dark rich under these tree’s?
You’d think after that many years the soil would be black?
We are considering purchasing a tiller to mix the sand and our compost together into the ground.
Then we consider that tillers are meant to break up hard compacted soil for root development, we have loose sandy soil.
Yes it can get pretty darn compact under the top surface but it’s still just sand, no rocks.
Are we wasting our time and money on a tiller?
Our ultimate goal is to have a garden to supplement food and also to enjoy healthy trees/plants on the property.
Thanks to all the farmers

 

[MTGreen]

I can't really contribute much to the soil question other than passing along reading that the dropped pine needles have a compound in them that inhibits other plant growth which may help explain some the the soil quality in the woods

 

[Rockbadchild]

''We look at the forest around us and note the pine tree’s that have been there hundreds of years with thick ( 4 inches ) compost at their base but under that pure white sugar sand.''
''We don’t understand why the soil isn’t dark rich under these tree’s?
You’d think after that many years the soil would be black?''

Not sure if I understand correctly... the first 4'' layer is organic matter (top soil) and under that is sand ? that would make sense if the case, soil doesn't mix on its own it accumulate in layers. The sand was deposited there by floods, glacier and wind then organic matter pile on top of it. Trees help retaining organic matter in place.


Tilling would be good, it would mix the sand and the manure which would be beneficial for compaction, soil retention and adding mineral to the manure. It would offer a smooth transition, now I wouldn't buy a tiller just for that.. not tilling isn't going to hurt anything, the vegetation wont struggle to start on manure.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, your soil sounds a lot like ours. I would try to get the newly placed organics Into the soil, not on top. Heavy rains, wind. ect, easily strip the light, small, organics, and float or blow them to other areas. Just a guess, but with the pines, I would guess there is a small amount of orangish clayey-sand down a few feet, that does have some mineral nutrients in it, but too deep to benefit most desirable plants.

A lot of advice from people will say "don't bury your top soil", with a sugar sand, I think burying it is a good thing.

Edit: checked your location, and you should have similar soils, as your probably with an hour or 1.5 hours from me.

The pines also point to most likely a very acidic soil.

You Should have great blueberry soils; if you get the acidity under control (if you have that problem), good peanut ground.

 

[paulsharvey]

Ocala was widely varying ground; ranging from sand, hard pan, gumbo, sandclay, soft rock, chert, rocks ranging from a basket ball to the size of a house, springs, hills, muck, ect; as well as widely varying water tables, all, within just a few miles of each other.

But, if you look around, the soil can grow corn, cotton, peanuts, planted pines, citrus, berries, hay, ect

 

[paulsharvey]

Only major issue with horse manure is going to be adding acidity, and a ton of weed seeds. Horses aren't an efficient digester, and many seeds survive their stomach. Neither of those draw backs outlay the benefits, and both can be controlled. I'm guessing your soil samples called for heavily liming?

 

[Rockbadchild]

So, your soil sounds a lot like ours. I would try to get the newly placed organics Into the soil, not on top. Heavy rains, wind. ect, easily strip the light, small, organics, and float or blow them to other areas. Just a guess, but with the pines, I would guess there is a small amount of orangish clayey-sand down a few feet, that does have some mineral nutrients in it, but too deep to benefit most desirable plants.

A lot of advice from people will say "don't bury your top soil", with a sugar sand, I think burying it is a good thing.

Edit: checked your location, and you should have similar soils, as your probably with an hour or 1.5 hours from me.

The pines also point to most likely a very acidic soil.

You Should have great blueberry soils; if you get the acidity under control (if you have that problem), good peanut ground.

I think your reasoning apply for topsoil but not manure, manure need oxygen to keep breaking down, burring it would slow down this process if not stopping it. Manure is quite coarse in composition and hold together not like topsoil...

 

[paulsharvey]

Oxygen moves pretty well in sand.

One note on the tiller; with your soil, you will need to compact after tilling; yiu can't get good germination with soil as "fluffy" as you'll get with fresh tilled soils.

One of the biggest benefits of the organics is, water retention. For people not from FLa, they don't understand how we have such severe water problems with 50 to 85" of rain per year. Best way to discribe it is; Florida is a desert, where it rains a lot... figuriratively and literally; we used to be connected to the Sahara desert. Where I am, we can get 6" of rain, and within an hour. the ditches are dry.

 

[nyone]

Coming from clay soil that nothing grows in..dont till it. You would just be moving **** soil more near the surface.

I have noticed a large benefit in my soil since I have done two things. Mulch in the leaves and grass clippings into my lawn. For my garden I actualy import leaves from a neighboring town who bag them. Theres a large boost of earth worms.

I did start with horse manure. That did help but brought in tons and tons of weeds. I have taken to wood chips for free organics. Horse manure does work well however all mine was composted in a pile in the shade for about 5yrs.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Oxygen moves pretty well in sand.

One note on the tiller; with your soil, you will need to compact after tilling; yiu can't get good germination with soil as "fluffy" as you'll get with fresh tilled soils.

One of the biggest benefits of the organics is, water retention. For people not from FLa, they don't understand how we have such severe water problems with 50 to 85" of rain per year. Best way to discribe it is; Florida is a desert, where it rains a lot... figuriratively and literally; we used to be connected to the Sahara desert. Where I am, we can get 6" of rain, and within an hour. the ditches are dry.

And where I am not 25 miles from you, 6 inches of rain will shut me down from getting in most of my fields for a week to 10 days. To the OP mix it in with your soil it will help it, big farmers here in certain parts of Florida raise a lot of crops in poor sandy soil by getting the PH right with lime or dolomite, plenty of fertilize and most importantly walking irrigation systems.