Fencing my property

[Oaktree]

I recall a discussion about "Adverse Possession", probably in the 80s(?) and the conclusion was that it was an old and outmoded concept and no longer applicable. That being said a true legal opinion is needed. As with most things YRMV.

But not impossible. I was able to gain some property at my previous house this way. It came down to the town's tax maps showing my property as quite a bit larger than my deed implied. The court ruled that since the tax map was a legal document, and in the 30 years I owned that property no one had challenged it so they ruled in my favor.
Wasn't trying to cheat anyone, but the discrepancy came up when I was selling the place, and the sale was conditional on its resolution.
I had used the disputed land the entire time I'd lived there since the deed was vague and the tax maps showed it being mine.

 

[bcp]

i wonder if a letter to each neighbor, giving them permission to "trespass" on any of your property that may be on their side of the fence, would prevent any claim of adverse possession?

I've heard similar about access roads to landlocked property. The road's owner would block the road one day a year.

Bruce

 

[Oaktree]

I've heard similar about access roads to landlocked property. The road's owner would block the road one day a year.

If I owned a piece of landlocked property I'd make absolutely sure I had deeded access.

 

[hosspuller]

Correct. In NY, it's VERY difficult.

"
A trespasser's possession must be:

1. hostile (against the right of the true owner and without permission)
2. actual (exercising control over the property)
3. exclusive (in the possession of the trespasser alone)
4. open and notorious (using the property as the real owner would, without hiding his or her occupancy), and
5. continuous for the statutory period (ten years under N.Y. Real Prop. Acts. Law § 511.)."

 

[hosspuller]

Correct. In NY, it's VERY difficult.

"
A trespasser's possession must be:

1. hostile (against the right of the true owner and without permission)
2. actual (exercising control over the property)
3. exclusive (in the possession of the trespasser alone)
4. open and notorious (using the property as the real owner would, without hiding his or her occupancy), and
5. continuous for the statutory period (ten years under N.Y. Real Prop. Acts. Law § 511.)."

I would say these five points are not hard to achieve with a fence, building or driveway. Even a mailbox. In NC the period is 20 years with the same requirements.

I can vouch that 20 years passes very quickly...10 years is a blink. I fought this battle.

 

[LouNY]

If I owned a piece of landlocked property I'd make absolutely sure I had deeded access.

Then it's not land locked.

 

[JPRambo]

And a deeded easement. I owned my land for about 5years before trying to get power to it. I had to have my neighbor agree to and sign papers before coop would bring in power lines.

If I owned a piece of landlocked property I'd make absolutely sure I had deeded access.

 

[SgtSluggo]

To the OP
Tennessee does have perimeter (property line) fence laws. If it sits right on the line, both landowners are responsible for the cost and upkeep of the fence.

You should look into them and talk to your neighbors if you decide to put one on the line.

 

[Bill Guenthner]

I have 35 acres and my son has 60 acres. Combined we have 12 land neighbors for the 95 acres. One of my sons 6 neighbors has a high tension wire, tree blow downs took care of that expensive wire last year and not sure this winter damage yet. Four other neighbors have dilapidated fencing if any at all. His southern neighbor has 4 strands of barbed wire for seasonal horses! My one southern land neighbor no fencing, the other adjacent is a year round pond making up that part of the property line. My neighbors to the SE - no fence, the other eastern one has livestock and a nice straight solid fence. With this neighbor fence I planted a tree line 20' from the fence as this is right on the property line. Here is where hay is cut and baled and eventually over time my neighbor will have wind break. The last one along the easement has no fence just the road. But with or without fencing all 95 acres 4 corners are marked and surveyed and easily found and seen.

Idaho2

Wow! That’s a lot of neighbors for 95 acres. Are you close to town?

 

[Bill Guenthner]

I have horses. But the most important factor to consider is the neighbors. One neighbor of mine is great. When he was planting trees along the line I asked him to plant them far enough from the existing fence (on the line) to allow him space to mow. He allowed ten feet from the fence. 20 years later, the mature trees only give him lawnmower width. Another neighbor didn't speak to me before having a surveyor mark the line. I guess he thought I was encroaching when I nailed up some field fence to keep my dog in. I wasn't, so he paid a surveyor needlessly. By his actions, I've no desire to be helpful to him. (he's in a subdivision, doesn't have a chainsaw) I have a farm with all sorts of handy stuff.) Friendly, is a two way street.

Why would your neighbor need to talk to you about having his property surveyed and marked?

 

[Bill Guenthner]

I marked my line with an occasional T-post, then built fences where convenient. But I also placed a single wire stretched between the T-posts to better represent a fence on the property line. My animal fences were all at odd angles to the line due to terrain, so it would be hard to claim they were on the line.

Bruce

A single wire isn’t a fence and if a person or animal gets hurt tripping over it or worse get’s clotheslined you could be liable. You might want to put hi-vis flags on it (like you would on electric), or just take it down. The property line is the property line, even if unmarked.

 

[Ken45101]

But not impossible. I was able to gain some property at my previous house this way. It came down to the town's tax maps showing my property as quite a bit larger than my deed implied. The court ruled that since the tax map was a legal document, and in the 30 years I owned that property no one had challenged it so they ruled in my favor.
Wasn't trying to cheat anyone, but the discrepancy came up when I was selling the place, and the sale was conditional on its resolution.
I had used the disputed land the entire time I'd lived there since the deed was vague and the tax maps showed it being mine.

When I complained to our county map department (GIS) about errors, I as told the maps are just general and are not to be used for accuracy.

 

[bcp]

My single wire was through steep, rough timbered and heavy brushed terrain. I wouldn't do it on more typical farmland or open forest land. It eventually got field fence on T-posts.

All those videos of building a fence on a lawn-like field make me jealous. One section about 70-100 ft long took 3 people a couple of days, mostly moving boulders so the fence would be near the ground on the bottom.

Bruce

 

[EddieWalker]

When I complained to our county map department (GIS) about errors, I as told the maps are just general and are not to be used for accuracy.

Here, where I live, it clearly states on their website that the lines are not accurate and should only be used for basic referencing. If you look at the parcels, they have ten acre parcels drawn the same size as 20 acre parcels. My neighbor made this mistake. The County Appraisal Map shows that the property line is about half way in the middle of my big pond. He wanted to let me know that it was on his land, so I had to show him on the map that he had printed out from them that it said the lines are not accurate. Then we walked over to where the corner pin was and it became very obvious to him that my pond wasn't even close to the property line.

 

[Michael In Tennessee]

Thanks for the replies so far. As I said, I don't know what I don't know, but I know more now.

For 24 acres, I'm loath to inset the fence a fair distance as it encroaches too much into the available acreage and in certain areas, fence line is the best pasture land anyway.

I agree that it may be pointless to fence in areas that are wooded. Farm animals are unlikely to go there even if they had free reign to do so. T-posts along the fence line to delineate the boundary would be sufficient. Painted purple if I feel the need. Fences don't stop people on foot anyway. ATVs maybe, but that doesn't seem to be a problem (any more. Previous left hand neighbors road quads on the property doing doughnuts in the pasture. Once! ) New left hand neighbor is pretty easy going. This property line is very much intermixed small tree and fence all tangled together. I might be able to convince him to allow deleting trees on the line. I can sweeten the deal by clearing his overgrown fields.

Right hand fence line is half cleared pasture with easy access. Half sparse woods with a few mature trees on the line. Good neighbor also.

Back fence line is mostly mature trees. Both back neighbors are decent folks. Have no idea though how they feel about a fence line or access to do the work. Need to talk with them, but that is where I probably don't really need a fence.

As to fence style. I was talking to a farmer I know. He mostly hays and has some cows. He said that his cows won't damage a field fence without barbwire. That is what he uses. Field fence is more expensive than high tensile though. I have an area I want to make suitable for the dog. For that, field fence looks like a good idea. Other areas high tensile seems good. I don't think barb wire is the fence of choice anymore.

Regarding adverse possession: Old right hand neighbor put a mobile home on this property many years ago. Well long enough to assert adverse possession here in Tennessee. Supposedly, they presumed an old fence line that established pastures before subdivision was the property line. The trailer was 85% on my property. They were basically destitute, so getting them to move anything would have only ended up with my paying court costs and paying to move the trailer. Fortunately (for me anyway), the defaulted to the bank and decided to take their trailer with them when evicted. New property owners had no interest in pursuing adverse possession, so the land is back in my hands. But, this experience teaches me that making sure you and your neighbors respect property boundaries is important.

 

[Michael In Tennessee]

When I complained to our county map department (GIS) about errors, I as told the maps are just general and are not to be used for accuracy.

I know for a fact that the county property line maps are off about 10 ft on the side lines. I know where the front post is and where on the aerial photo they show it to be. That doesn't help me find the missing posts in the back though.

 

[EddieWalker]

I agree that it may be pointless to fence in areas that are wooded. Farm animals are unlikely to go there even if they had free reign to do so.

I didn't go back to see what animals you wanted to have, but I think you mentioned goats. If that's right, then goats absolutely love wooded areas. They would rather eat leaves then grass. In fact, pasture grass is one of their least favorite things to eat. Cows and horses love grass, goats love leaves.

My horses are in the wooded areas all the time too. They just like to stand there in the shade. They will be out in the sun all day long eating grass, but when they are full, they tend to head to the wooded areas.

For my land, I'm wanting about 60 to 70% pasture and the rest wooded. The wooded areas vary from being like a park with easy mowing around the trees, to thick jungle for the goats.

If you have small trees along the property line, take them out now. Small trees are a lot faster and easier to remove then big trees. And small trees become big trees a lot faster when they are growing where you don't want them to be!!!!!

 

[LouNY]

I haven't seen many large animals that didn't like to go into woods.
Cows are quite effective in thinning down hedgerows and under growth in woods.

 

[ponytug]

Given the chance, cattle tend to be "ambush" grazers. They leave the trees or brush, graze, and retreat to the trees or brush to rest and chew their cud. Forested shade keeps the fly pressure down on animals.

Goats, like deer and llamas are browsers and prefer woody leaves and stems. All are great for clearing undergrowth. Goats are born acrobats, and think nothing of scaling trees or fences, so goat proof fencing is not a small thing, at least in my experience.

Like others here, if it were my land, I would fence as close to the boundary as possible. If that means taking out big trees, I would chat with neighbors about it. I don't have strong feelings either way, just that if you do run wire by trees you use pressure treated wood spacers to keep the wire, and nails, out of the trees. You will thank yourself later.

All the best,

Peter

 

[EddieWalker]

Something else to consider is creating multiple pastures. This is good for letting an area grow without any animals on it, but.its also good if a tree takes out the fence.

You can keep the animals in the other pasture while you fix the damaged fence. On my land, I'm creating 4 pastures for grazing and another area for the barn and feeding area. I can keep them in any of the 5 areas if I'm doing something in one of the pastures, or open the gates and give them access to all of my land.

Spraying for weeds means keeping the animals out of that pasture for a week. If a big storm comes through, I will keep all of them in the barn area and check my fence before letting them out.

For me, it's worth the extra time and money to do this.