Tales of running out of fuel (and the remedy).

[Gordon Gould]

I keep my fuel tanks full. The last thing I want to do is run out down in the woods. So I was surprised when one day I was running the dozer down the woods road to get started and about 10 minutes down I started having what seemed like low fuel problems. Then she died. Checked the fuel bowl - sure enough, no fuel. Then bingo and Duh... Went around back and turned on the fuel shut-off valve located on the bottom of the tank. Like someone above said, Cummins 239 with DPA pump - self primes and starts right up.

Amazing it would run that long with the fuel shut off.

gg

 

[DieselBound]

Let's put it simple for you: he believes tanks never change temperature and they are all fiberglass.

Reading or comprehension problem?

 

[CausticUrbanCoast]

Reading or comprehension problem?

"The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? One way would be to have a very cold day that suddenly warms up dramatically, but when does this ever happen?"

"Thus one might expect to see sweating on the outside of a tank as the day warms up from cold mornings, but do we? Well, I can say that after 35 years of inspecting boats, I've rarely seen tanks sweating. Note: Sweating may be likely to occur with boats in very cold waters when warm days are encountered"

"Today all tanks are fiberglass, so this no longer happens (that I know of)."


Nevermind; the guy was from Florida, reality does not exist there. Follow his advice, it will, should be interesting for future posts. Nothing like strapping a tank to a giant temperature sink at sea level and then comparing it to open air in the rest of the world. Wind chill, be damned! Keep the methylhydrate for drinking!

 

[Gordon Gould]

"The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? One way would be to have a very cold day that suddenly warms up dramatically, but when does this ever happen?"

"Thus one might expect to see sweating on the outside of a tank as the day warms up from cold mornings, but do we?

Actually around here it is very common to go out in the morning and see all my vehicles and equipment covered with water. And I mean really wet - like it rained. All it takes is a 20 to 30 degree temp change over night with high day time humidity and you get a ton of condensation. We call it dew if it is on the lawn.

gg

 

[Jstpssng]

Actually around here it is very common to go out in the morning and see all my vehicles and equipment covered with water. And I mean really wet - like it rained. All it takes is a 20 to 30 degree temp change over night with high day time humidity and you get a ton of condensation.

gg

The same thing can happen in my shed with a metal roof. I lost a lot of things because I didn't realize how metal roofs condensate, then act like it's raining inside.

 

[RjCorazza]

While I agree that the majority of water intrusion is caused by direct entry (operators leaving fuel cap off, defective design, etc), the article posted is only looking at one cycle of potential condensation.
Tank pressures increase and decrease on a cyclic basis, drawing in outside air repeatedly.

 

[Diggin It]

"The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? One way would be to have a very cold day that suddenly warms up dramatically, but when does this ever happen?"

"Thus one might expect to see sweating on the outside of a tank as the day warms up from cold mornings, but do we? Well, I can say that after 35 years of inspecting boats, I've rarely seen tanks sweating. Note: Sweating may be likely to occur with boats in very cold waters when warm days are encountered"

"Today all tanks are fiberglass, so this no longer happens (that I know of)."

A: Extremely common to rise 20 degrees in the two or three hours of Sunlight on a cold day. 40 to 60 or 50 to 70 happens on many days in Spring and Fall.

B: We're not talking about boats. We're talking tractors, other yard machines and bulk storage tanks, many of which are metal.

C: I don't know of a single fiberglass tank for home or farm use.

 

[DieselBound]

"The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? One way would be to have a very cold day that suddenly warms up dramatically, but when does this ever happen?"

"Thus one might expect to see sweating on the outside of a tank as the day warms up from cold mornings, but do we? Well, I can say that after 35 years of inspecting boats, I've rarely seen tanks sweating. Note: Sweating may be likely to occur with boats in very cold waters when warm days are encountered"

"Today all tanks are fiberglass, so this no longer happens (that I know of)."


Nevermind; the guy was from Florida, reality does not exist there. Follow his advice, it will, should be interesting for future posts. Nothing like strapping a tank to a giant temperature sink at sea level and then comparing it to open air in the rest of the world. Wind chill, be damned! Keep the methylhydrate for drinking!

Still no physics presented in support of your side. You've seen condensation inside your tractor's fuel tank? (outside?)

I've got METAL tanks and I've got plastic tanks. ALL OUTSIDE. I'm in the PNW. I've had ZERO water in any of my tanks (other than via crappy locking fuel cap on my Kioti). So, it's not a hypothetical for me, it's PROVEN.

 

[CausticUrbanCoast]

Still no physics presented in support of your side. You've seen condensation inside your tractor's fuel tank? (outside?)

I've got METAL tanks and I've got plastic tanks. ALL OUTSIDE. I'm in the PNW. I've had ZERO water in any of my tanks (other than via crappy locking fuel cap on my Kioti). So, it's not a hypothetical for me, it's PROVEN.

Inside, outside, everything around it. Tractor fuel tank, vehicle tanks, heating oil tank, fuel storage tanks.

Even on the fancy double tanks, especially when I lived in an area that would swing the temperature up or down almost 110F in under 2 hours.

Storage tanks, drain them each year or two and get maybe an ounce or two of water. Based on that guys numbers I should have had way more. Almost half an ounce a days worth.

You want real numbers? They depend on ambient temperatures and then the chemical breakdown of the specific blend.

Request Rejected

Looks like the fiberglass guys see it as an issue as well: Microbial Influenced Corrosion (MIC) of Metals & Alloys in Fuel & Municipal Storage Tank and Piping Systems - Fiberglass Tank & Pipe

How about some nice research ( Liquid Fuel Ageing Processes in Long-term Storage Conditions ) on oxidation breakdown and an excerpt:


" The rate and frequency of temperature fluctuations favors accumulation of higher amounts of oxygen and water in storage tanks. A significant drop or temporary fluctuations in the fuel’s temperature cause changes which are not always reversible (any generated deposits or highly dispersed phases do not always disappear after the temperature has risen).
The relationship between changes in the rate of chemical and biochemical reactions and temperature is exponential, therefore, the most active components of fuels, contained in refinery products may react at a temperature of 40°C even several times as fast, compared with their reaction rates at –30°C. For that reason, the surface of fuel storage tanks must be protected from the direct impact of thermal and solar radiation. "

I can pull put the chemistry set if that is what you really want?

 

[CausticUrbanCoast]

Like probably a bunch of others here, I do everything wrong according to the above recommendations. For fiberglass or steel tanks.

My storage tanks sit out in the weather on a stand, my tractors and vehicles do not sit in a sheltered shop with closed doors.