I don't know where this discussion goes

[oosik]

I thin my pine stands every spring. Approximately 900 small pines - 1" to 6" on the butt. Chip them all "in the round". Otherwise - the property would look the "hair on a dog". Dragging & piling is the most difficult part. When I finish the thinning operation on a stand - looks like a game of "pick up sticks". All sizes - lying in all directions - it's a mess. So - one by one, drag them out and pile them. Rest a couple day - begin the chipping operation.

The total project will take a month and a half. I will usually stumble and fall a couple times during the dragging phase. I'm pretty good at a graceful fall and seldom really hurt myself.

 

[Deere Dude]

The total project will take a month and a half. I will usually stumble and fall a couple times during the dragging phase. I'm pretty good at a graceful fall and seldom really hurt myself.

Do you get up and look around to see if anyone notices? Join the crowd.

 

[oosik]

Unfortunately - I've been unable to convince anybody as to how much fun this project can be. So, no - I don't look around. If anybody sees me it would be the deer. They know better than to snicker or laugh.

 

[TheMadOne]

Unfortunately - I've been unable to convince anybody as to how much fun this project can be. So, no - I don't look around. If anybody sees me it would be the deer. They know better than to snicker or laugh.

Grapple? May have to get a second tractor, like a B2650, to put it on. Not sure how well a M6040 goes through pine stands.

 

[oosik]

AH - my M6040 & grapple are just too big for this project. I've tried and ended up simply knocking EVERYTHING down. I'm pretty selective when I thin. So there will always be trees left standing throughout the entire stand. Makes navigation with a tractor a nightmare/impossible.

This coming spring - got a commitment from my son and a couple of his buddies. We'll see just how long they last at dragging.

When their $80 designer jeans & $70 polo shirts get all pitch covered, ripped & stained. That will be the true test. My son knows better. The other two - ???.

 

[EddieWalker]

Do pines change the soil and make it acidic, or do pines grow best in soil that is already acidic? Either way, the soil is what it is. Trying to change it for long term, decades of growth is a waste of time and money. Yes, you can lower the Ph of soil with lime, it's done with crops all the time. But for trees, you would have to do it on a bi yearly basis, and all that would accomplish is changing the Ph in the first foot or so of soil. Also remember that lime will take 4 to six months to actually do anything, and with crops, it takes years of adding lime every six months, or every year to get it to where that crop will do well. Then you have to add lime to it all the time to keep it there based on soil analysis that you have to send it to know how much lime per acre that you need for that specific crop.

On my land, sweetgums and red oaks grow like weeds right next to the pines, along with a dozen other species of trees like dogwoods and redbuds. Then where the color of my dirt changes from red to brown, I don't have any pine trees at all, just the hardwoods and cedars.

Instead of asking your extension agent what might grow on your land, go talk to a few of the bigger nurseries in your area. Not all are good, and it will take a little legwork to find out who knows what they are talking about from those wanting to sell you anything and everything. One of the biggest things to be aware of is that a young tree will do good for a few years, or even a decade, and then it will all of a sudden die on you. It takes years to kill a tree, so the actual cause may not be apparent.

If I clear an area of land, my biggest struggle is keeping it cleared because the trees will take over again. It's harder to grow grass here then trees!!!

 

[Citydude]

I thin my pine stands every spring. Approximately 900 small pines - 1" to 6" on the butt. Chip them all "in the round". Otherwise - the property would look the "hair on a dog". Dragging & piling is the most difficult part. When I finish the thinning operation on a stand - looks like a game of "pick up sticks". All sizes - lying in all directions - it's a mess. So - one by one, drag them out and pile them. Rest a couple day - begin the chipping operation.

The total project will take a month and a half. I will usually stumble and fall a couple times during the dragging phase. I'm pretty good at a graceful fall and seldom really hurt myself.

When I was clearing a 30 foot easement thru birch my retired from logging neighbor walked down to where I was working. Had is chainsaw in hand and gazed at the carnage laying down the canyon in all different directions.

He smiled and said he would give me a hand and would start on one side. I went back to sawing. After about half an hour, I looked up the canyon where he was working. Every tree was felled in the same direction. It dawned on me he did that so all I had to do was drive down and grapple them and back out to the burn pile.

The part he worked on was heaven grappling. The part I worked on, not so much.

 

[MossRoad]

We have alternating rows of pines and mixed hardwoods. The pines grow fast in a cone shape, which stresses the rows of hardwoods between them to grow tall and straight looking for sunlight. We planted them around 1990. The hardwoods are doing fine in the pines.

So most likely, it's something in your case, to do with the type of pines and/or the soil type. Contact your county extension agent, and as you've done, get the soil tested, and then figure out what types of plants and trees will grow in that type of soil with the trees that you already have.

So many people want to make nature conform to their idea of what they want on their land and end up disappointed when things don't grow, and/or they have to throw tremendous amounts of time and money at it. And if they let up on their program for a couple years, it all starts going back to what grows best there anyway. Work with what you have before trying to force it to comply to your desires.

 

[MHarryE]

My area was logged from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. Huge stands primarily white pine on the high land. Regrowth has tended toward poplar trees, a tree of the same genus as aspen. The climate has changed so that the large pines are quite rare unless planted on gravel. I have a stand of Northern Red Pine across the river from my house growing well on gravel. The rest of my ground would naturally be taken over by poplar if I didn’t farm it. My clay soil tests pH from 5.2 to 5.8, very acidic, and lime in this area is hard to come by due to transportation cost. I am on the list for our substitute, wood ash from our wood products plants. I grow crops that can tolerate acidic soils but I would try to bring it closer to neutral. It sounds probable that pines do create soil acidity but experience here is pines take off in acidic soil. Which came first, the chicken or the egg.

 

[kthompson]

The age of a a forest is also reflected in the type of trees that grow there. I do not trust my memory on whether it is the pine or the hardwood that tends to be older forest.

Where my Dad grew up the land is very sandy and good bit is on the dry side. In those areas pines and scrub oaks are the natural trees. In the wetter land (swamps and edges of swamps) it is hardwoods. Pine do not like wet roots. Here if pines grow on it, it is not considered wet lands.

We had few acres that was in pines that brother in law wanted to turn into crop land. He had the trees clear cut and piled and burnt the debris. Than walked away. Pines and a few hardwoods sprouted up and the land was left like that for about 8 years. I used rough cut mower and cleared the trees and then disk and waited a while and disk a few more times. Neighbor was getting into hay business and swapped a few years or no rent for the final getting into crop condition. His grass was great looking for about five years and slowly on the wetter side of the field began turning into weed grass. I took the field over and planted soybeans on it for a year or two before doing soil test. That land had very low ph level. So low could not bring it to recommended range in a year. Here farmers almost totally use the dry agriculture lime and yes it takes a few months to reap it's full benefit. Now on coarse sandy land with lots of rain my guess is it will affect much more than the top six inches and also will not last as long as on finer soils with less rain.

If it were me: I would drive around looking at the trees in the area. You must also consider how wet your land is compared to the other land. If you find the type of trees you want then compare it as careful as you can to such as soil type of how damp the two are. If you can talk with the owner to learn how it got that way.

I would quickly get soil test (you need to sample several areas at least one sample per about five acres unless you really have many acres then more acres per sample) and talk with the county agent or ag supply store who works with farmers and if possible foresters. THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE A BOX TYPE BUSINESS.

Yes pines like acid soil, yes they make it more acidic that is why you see different shrubs and such growing under them. That is also some use pine needles in shrubby beds. Many grasses do not like acid soil.

Pines here will put roots down 6 to 8 feet I know for have dug a many of their stumps. Some hardwoods will put down roots say 4 to 6 but many hardwoods will not be near that deep. I really believe if you want to remove your pines and grow hardwoods or grass you can do so with proper soil treatment over at least two years maybe four if you will make reasonable applications of lime and give the land time to adjust. Of course all that depends on such factors as just how poor the soil is and the water level and rain amount.

In typing this I think you will be best served to find an local (older logger if no forester) forester and have conversation with him first. But we did bring a few acres from pine land to great grass land, in about 20 years. Could have been much quicker had not been looking for quick success.