Control joints in shop slab??

/ Control joints in shop slab?? #21  
Tomorrow is too late for cutting expansion joints. The concrete will have already begun to crack but it will be months before you see it. Tomorrow's cut lines will help some, but 2 down the middle will mostly be for aesthetics. They should have been cut early this morning. I would have cut your floor into approximately 12' squares.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #22  
Pour a decent slab with high strength concrete plenty or rebar and forget the control joints. If you don't have a properly prepared base & rebar in the concrete to think it can be controlled wear it cracks or separates is a pipe dream.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #23  
People just don't cut them around here because they will inevitably crack outside the joint lines

That must be a Texas thing as even in Oklahoma they know to cut control joints in concrete.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #24  
Pour a decent slab with high strength concrete plenty or rebar and forget the control joints. If you don't have a properly prepared base & rebar in the concrete to think it can be controlled wear it cracks or separates is a pipe dream.

How much concrete have you poured?
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #25  
Tomorrow is too late for cutting expansion joints. The concrete will have already begun to crack but it will be months before you see it. Tomorrow's cut lines will help some, but 2 down the middle will mostly be for aesthetics. They should have been cut early this morning. I would have cut your floor into approximately 12' squares.

This^^^^

Makes me wonder if the OP poured this himself.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab??
  • Thread Starter
#26  
This^^^^ Makes me wonder if the OP poured this himself.

If you read the entire post you'd see I had it poured by a concrete company. The concrete guy came back around 1pm today and cut the control joints in ... I think it looks pretty good I'm glad the guys on here talked me into it. I'm curious, What part of my post made you think I poured the slab myself? Thanks to everyone who posted useful information👍
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #27  
If you read the entire post you'd see I had it poured by a concrete company. The concrete guy came back around 1pm today and cut the control joints in ... I think it looks pretty good I'm glad the guys on here talked me into it. I'm curious, What part of my post made you think I poured the slab myself? Thanks to everyone who posted useful information��

We all know a guy that shoots before they aim. Well he's that guy.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #28  
We all know a guy that shoots before they aim. Well he's that guy.

I must have really gotten to you at some point. I'm just glad you talked your way out of the firewood thread, that was pure entertainment.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #29  
If you read the entire post you'd see I had it poured by a concrete company. The concrete guy came back around 1pm today and cut the control joints in ... I think it looks pretty good I'm glad the guys on here talked me into it. I'm curious, What part of my post made you think I poured the slab myself? Thanks to everyone who posted useful information��

The fact that you were asking if you could cut the joints yourself seemed to indicate you were in charge of the pour to some degree, not a competent contractor. No competent contractors is going to tell you to go check the internet to see if you should cut expansion joints in your slab. Your welcome.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #30  
The OP's work is done, results to come over the next year.

SLAB ON GRADE 101

I was a Quality Control inspector for contractors doing government contracts. Their specs are a great overkill. During that time I took in many seminars at the annual "World of Concrete" trade show sponsored by the American Concrete institute (ACI). ACI is the industry association that designs and tests all the standards relating to concrete construction. They have some fairly inexpensive manuals available on Amazon. I have also been at the concrete school at the USACOE concrete experimental laboratory. In General the current thinking (proven by testing) for slabs on grade is: (this also is my extrapolations for 4" lightly loaded slabs like the OP's.)

1. Proper sub-grade preparation by excavation down to below topsoil, crushed gravel base compacted to 90%+. Flaws here will follow through to the finished product.
2. Reinforcing depends on end use, sub-grade condition, concrete end strength. Wire mesh is a waste of time, it never winds up at the right elevation, after walking on it, in the slab to provide benefit, rebar in 4" slabs is iffy also to get it right, only benefit is if high loads are to be placed, then you probably need 6" concrete and some engineering thought, fiber chopped strands. Fiber is gaining a lot of credibility as testing is proving its value for slabs on grade.
2. Mix needs to be at least 4000# concrete with up to double the fiber normal used by concrete deliverers, maximum 4" slump and do not add extra water no matter what the finisher says, 4% air entrainment if exposed to the weather
3. Place what your finisher(s) can handle in daylight hours unless you plan of good lighting, finishers go a by by appearance and color, to get the finish you desire. If more than one placement then form a keyed construction joint to place against for the next phase.
4. Control joints: Lay out in a grid pattern depending on size and penetrations. Over 16' in any direction requires two equal cuts that direction up to 12' per panel. 12' by 12' is a good grid goal to plan around with max of 14 x 14. Where ever a penetration exists, the slab will always crack at the corners unless you block it out with joints, again planning is needed to keep small sections minimized, every job is different. WHEN & HOW: As soon as finish is completed do it even if you have to work under lights, next morning or day you have wasted you time and money, it has already cracked where it wants to. Small jobs have the finisher cut with a jointing trowel, larger use what is called a soft cut machine right behind the finishers. Depth is 1/3 the slab thickness, less is iffy on results.
4. Curing: Membrane cure works when under cover or over cast days for a week. Hot sunny days wet cure is best, build a sand curb and keep flooded. Best to cure for 5-7 days.
5. Sealing: Exterior slabs exposed to the weather you need to fill saw /trowel cuts with a good grade urethane sealant applied strictly per manufacturer's instructions. Freeze thaw in the joints will destroy your surface. Same for new cracks you did not create, Gouge out cracks and seal are you will see the results after next winter.

If you have approaches for vehicles you need to do a thickened edge at that point with transition to the adjacent grade that prevents a jump up to the slab.

Concrete is a science not an art. Hope this is of value to someone, Ron

I can show you driveways, garages, exposed slabs I have done , had done or done under my inspection that after 15-20 years still have no visible cracks except mine.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #31  
I must have really gotten to you at some point. I'm just glad you talked your way out of the firewood thread, that was pure entertainment.

Go find your entertainment and PM to me. However I don't remember any earth shattering "gotcha" moment on your part.,
 
/ Control joints in shop slab??
  • Thread Starter
#32  
The fact that you were asking if you could cut the joints yourself seemed to indicate you were in charge of the pour to some degree, not a competent contractor. No competent contractors is going to tell you to go check the internet to see if you should cut expansion joints in your slab. Your welcome.
I never asked how to cut lines, I asked what would be the best placement.... So I could make sure the CONCRETE guy did it the best possible way. The contractor never suggested I go to the internet and ask what to do, it was this little thing called free will!! I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I did refer to myself( only because it's my slab and I'm the direct contact to my contractor) in a couple posts but it looked pretty clear to me. Now I'm going to read the firewood post... My guess is you like to assume things without asking questions.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab??
  • Thread Starter
#33  
The fact that you were asking if you could cut the joints yourself seemed to indicate you were in charge of the pour to some degree, not a competent contractor. No competent contractors is going to tell you to go check the internet to see if you should cut expansion joints in your slab. Your welcome.


I'll let Louis know this guy on the Internet thinks he's incompetent, unless of course that was directed at me since you think I'm the contractor in charge?
 
/ Control joints in shop slab??
  • Thread Starter
#34  
Tractor Seabee,
Your post was informative thank you for posting that. Hopefully cracks will be "controlled" in my slab, if not oh well it was a pretty cheap chance to take. Since you seem to know a lot about concrete. What is your suggestion for a house slab? Overkill rebar. post tension with several beams? Several people tell me a lot of rebar is the way to go and several people have said post tension, I like the theory behind post tension. All these different opinions have made this a difficult decision? What would you suggest?
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #35  
The guys who did my slab made it smooth as can be. They then cut the joints in. THEN, after it cured a little, filled the joints in.

What I ended up with was a smooth finish floor, level as can be. The joints have small cracks in them as they had planned. It turnout primo and I really appreciate their craftsmanship.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #36  
Cut them.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #37  
Very informative post Tractor Seebee.

Concrete is a very well engineered product with easily available information.
The quality and transport conditions are frequently different from what is expected as are the placing and finishing methods.
Quality controlled, tested and owner supervised conditions as in larger construction have a much better chance of being done properly.

It also has a great Folklore Following!
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #38  
4. Control joints: Lay out in a grid pattern depending on size and penetrations. Over 16' in any direction requires two equal cuts that direction up to 12' per panel. 12' by 12' is a good grid goal to plan around with max of 14 x 14. Where ever a penetration exists, the slab will always crack at the corners unless you block it out with joints, again planning is needed to keep small sections minimized, every job is different. WHEN & HOW: As soon as finish is completed do it even if you have to work under lights, next morning or day you have wasted you time and money, it has already cracked where it wants to. Small jobs have the finisher cut with a jointing trowel, larger use what is called a soft cut machine right behind the finishers. Depth is 1/3 the slab thickness, less is iffy on results.

The soft cut or green cut saw really works. But around here not to many contractors have one set up. I wonder if it is because they don't want to wait the extra time for the concrete to cure enough that the wheels on the saw don't leave a mark.
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #39  
Had a 40x60 4" slab with 24" beams poured yesterday afternoon. Should I cut control joints? I've got several contradicting opinions. I'd like to get suggestions from people who did and who didn't go with control joints. Also, I'm pouring my house slab in about a month. I, trying to decide on post tension vs rebar(5/8 rebar in slab and beams on 12" centers) Again I've got a lot of contradicting opinions. Trying nail down a decision and its proven difficult lol. Thanks in advance.

Definitely saw in control joints. For a 4" slab the max spacing would be 8' oc with 3/4" or smaller aggregate and 10' oc for larger than 3/4". The spacing changes because the larger aggregate will shrink less. The joints should be cut 1/4 of the slab thickness or 1" in this case. The joints should come off any reentrant corners because there will be stress concentrations at the corners.

Because of the expansive soils in Texas many will do post tensioned in that region. I will say that making modifications to a post tensioned slab is very difficult. If you have plans to remodel a kitchen or add onto the building, I'd suggest going with conventional reinforcement.

If you have expansive soils, be sure to have the contractors grout the gravel filled trenches. This will prevent the water in the gravel from running under the building and causing the soil to swell.

Regarding the ability to open up the spacings or even omit the joints... with the modern macro fibers I'm seeing some incredible joint spacings. Just did a 8" slab with a heavy dose of macrofiber, 3,000psi (lower strength shrinks less), water reducer and 1.5" aggregate and those joints were set at 60' oc!
 
/ Control joints in shop slab?? #40  
I would cut the control joints. The slab WILL crack. Looks a lot nicer when it's in a nice straight control joint than in the ugly zig-zag pattern.

And I think the window for cutting the joints is pretty tight. Better git er done.

Really pound the ground and wet it before you pour, Stone down and plastic over stone.

Cut the slab, 12'x12'. squares would be fine. Fill crack with self leveling Polyurethane.
 

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