Weather forcing people to move?

[newbury]

This kind of talk always makes me laugh.

If you want to mark how Vermont became "North New York" you need only look at one place: IBM. IBM employs about 25% of all the manufacturing workers in the state, even more if you count Tier I and Tier II suppliers. Vermont has always been popular with New Yorkers, but because of IBM they came, and they stayed. You can measure their impact in many ways: politically, internet access, Cadillac sales, you name it. IBM had and has close ties with the state government and have huge influence. No doubt you can plot the change of VT from rock-ribbed Republican to the People's Republic of Vermont by plotting IBM employment. <snip>

My Dad moved us there in 1957 from IBM Poughkeepsie. New plant, virtually all New Yorkers.

I have to doubt that IBM's employees are majority New Yorkers. Some of course but IBM has another plant in Fishkill NY so there isn't any great need to move to Vt to get an IBM job. <snip>

They were until about the mid 60's. But IBM means I've Been Moved. Employees who want climb the ladder move all around. And IBM is ALL over the world. Before retiring my Dad moved to Florida w/ IBM. I worked IBM Essex Junction in college, around 1970. By then the "clock punchers" were about 50% Vermonters and 50% a mix of NY, CA, MA. I was in the chip making department just after they stopped making "mag core memory" and when the French came over with the new process that put THREE transistors on ONE chip. I heard they put more on now.

I got my first Think pad at IBM in about 1964.

But mine is black.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Are you retirement age and no kids in school?

That divide is everywhere. My mom used to go to town meeting and vote against school spending because she was concerned it would raise her taxes. She had five grandchildren in the system and a daughter who taught in it.... My brother had to drive her so he nullified her vote....

There is a huge gulf between Girlington and everywhere else.....

I'm 60 and have been retired for six years and yes the girls are all grown and gone. My wife is the town clerk and now the select boards administrative assistant so we are committed here for at least another five years but have no plans to ever move full time.
The problem with the school is declining enrollment. Where there used to be 300 ,1 through 12 they are now down to 186, PK through 12 ,but they still have a staff of 41 including 20 teachers and seven para educators. They expect a full 20 kindergarteners to show up next year (I'll believe it when I see them in a line) and for that seem to think they should hire a full time Par educator to help out the kindergarten teacher. Their per pupil expenditure will be above $15,000 per student this year depending on how many show up.

Now to get back to the topic a bit it's not the weather that is causing the loss of students but the lack of good jobs that the millennials want and need to pay back their college loans.

One daughter has moved to Atlanta for a job and another is applying for jobs in the DC area and the third may follow in a few years where the small school she currently teaches at closes or consolidates. At least we will have warm places to visit in the winter in a few years.

 

[dave1949]

<snip> Their per pupil expenditure will be above $15,000 per student this year depending on how many show up.

Now to get back to the topic a bit it's not the weather that is causing the loss of students but the lack of good jobs that the millennials want and need to pay back their college loans.

One daughter has moved to Atlanta for a job and another is applying for jobs in the DC area and the third may follow in a few years where the small school she currently teaches at closes or consolidates. At least we will have warm places to visit in the winter in a few years.

That's some expensive schools at $15K. I can understand being upset. We are the second smallest of six towns making up a consolidated district; we don't have the votes to do much about influencing the school budget. It's pretty much go along with the majority or start paying tuition to schools on a per head basis.

People moving out for jobs is pretty much the norm across northern VT, NH and ME. We have some geographical strikes against us that weren't so obvious when lumber and paper drove the job markets--you have to go where the trees are after all in the timber business.

Even if our energy rates were comparable to areas in the Midwest it would still be expensive to operate here due to long winters. We are off the beaten path for trucking and rail which adds time and money. If businesses needed to fly people in and out, regional airports add schedule time and expensive fares. For those reasons it is difficult to attract manufacturing to these areas.

In Maine at least, the towns in the south and up the coast to Bangor roughly are generating much of the income that supports the state budget. State spending for education and roads is a good example; rural areas are net recipients of tax distribution. It may be satisfying to sit in the backwoods carping about other people but the reality is those other people are supporting low income rural areas.

 

[MacLawn]

Boys, y'all come on down! Did I tell y'all about me Georgia neighbors? No? Okay, here's the scoop: across road, Connecticut, shared drive, one from New York, other couple retired navy from Minnesota. I'm the only native Georgian right here. Minnesota couple been here about 40 years. Minnesota wife told Ethyl last summer that she's tired of them dam yankee know-it-alls coming down here! I reckon she figures they've been here long enough, they're natives. Anybody can be a know-it-all. Seems it's usually people who move into a new area, no matter where it is, and trying to tell locals how it should be. If I ever move to NYC, I'm going to tell them that where I'm from, we just wouldn't tolerate all these crowds and traffic.

Boys, all I know is, me old southern bones cain't even tolerate our Georgia winters!! I was made for the tropics I tell ye.

 

[Garandman]

Boys, all I know is, me old southern bones cain't even tolerate our Georgia winters!! I was made for the tropics I tell ye.

I was at Fort Benning in 1981 when it snowed. It was scary to think that 2" of snow shut down the Infantry School. I was a Corporal at the time and we had four privates out on a range about 10 miles away. All the Sergeants declined to pick them up. The CO was from Bufalo and thought this was funny, but off I went in my VW Beetle to get the troops: seemingly the only vehicle moving on a 350,000 acre post, and a civilian one at that.

 

[Parkanzky]

I was at Fort Benning in 1981 when it snowed. It was scary to think that 2" of snow shut down the Infantry School. I was a Corporal at the time and we had four privates out on a range about 10 miles away. All the Sergeants declined to pick them up. The CO was from Bufalo and thought this was funny, but off I went in my VW Beetle to get the troops: seemingly the only vehicle moving on a 350,000 acre post, and a civilian one at that.

Picking four privates and their gear up in a VW Beetle is funny no matter the weather.

 

[Garandman]

In Maine at least, the towns in the south and up the coast to Bangor roughly are generating much of the income that supports the state budget. State spending for education and roads is a good example; rural areas are net recipients of tax distribution. It may be satisfying to sit in the backwoods carping about other people but the reality is those other people are supporting low income rural areas.

I've known US Rep Bruce Poliquin since HS and we've had conversations over the years (mostly while he was state treasurer) about the Maine economy. New England as a whole is a peninsula that sticks out into the North Atlantic and is cut off from the rest of the country by the Appalachians, so commodity manufacture isn't an option. Maine is about half of New England and as you've mentioned, the low population density and long distances make it difficult and expensive to deliver services of all kinds. On top of that the state's tax policies were not very conducive for start up businesses. The state gave a bunch of tax incentives to manufacturers, many of whom stayed until those were used up then moved on. Portland, LA and Bangor each have a few bright spots. Then there's BIW, Hinckley and LL Bean.

 

[dave1949]

I've known US Rep Bruce Poliquin since HS and we've had conversations over the years (mostly while he was state treasurer) about the Maine economy. New England as a whole is a peninsula that sticks out into the North Atlantic and is cut off from the rest of the country by the Appalachians, so commodity manufacture isn't an option. Maine is about half of New England and as you've mentioned, the low population density and long distances make it difficult and expensive to deliver services of all kinds. On top of that the state's tax policies were not very conducive for start up businesses. The state gave a bunch of tax incentives to manufacturers, many of whom stayed until those were used up then moved on. Portland, LA and Bangor each have a few bright spots. Then there's BIW, Hinckley and LL Bean.

I think places need to play well the hand they are dealt. Some examples:

Cooperstown, NY with the Baseball Museum and Hall of Fame. The area hosts kid's baseball camps all summer. Home of James Fenimore Cooper; Last of the Mohicans. The town lives on tourism, nice eateries (they zoned out the fast food and chains), hotels and B&Bs, Broadway shows & opera.

Finger Lakes wine region in NY. Brought back the agriculture, wine and champagne that were their traditional roots. Watkins Glen is in the area. Home of Glenn Curtiss and his airplanes. Great museum to visit, very interesting guy.

Quechee Gorge, VT. Okay, it's a hole in the ground with some nice skiing nearby but look what they have done with that. People are making a living.

Ogunquit, ME. Nice ocean beach, nice restaurants and hotels. Friendly to "diverse" clientele. Can't drive through there in the summer they attract so many visitors. Ogunquit Playhouse summer theater that attracts notable actors.


So what is Maine's hand it was dealt? We have a "brand." We have ocean coasts, lakes and woods in relatively wild states--nature about as natural as can be seen in the eastern US. Outdoor recreation: skiing, snowmobiles, 100-Mile Wilderness section of the AT, fishing, camping, boating, hiking. The whole lobster thing . Clam Festival. That is what we have to work with. We should seek to do those things better and in more attractive ways that suit a wider variety of budgets.

All of that exists within an easy drive of many millions of people with disposable income. We should work to preserve and improve that Maine vacation/get-away heritage that goes back to the early 1900's. We should not strive to be something we are not and cannot be competitive at.

In particular we should not destroy our strengths while reaching for unattainable goals that are more suited to other areas. I see that as misguided policy that is pursued by some of our politicians.

Getting back to the thread topic, I don't think people are as likely to leave an upbeat area that has a vibrant economy no matter what the weather is.

 

[vtsnowedin]

I think places need to play well the hand they are dealt. Some examples:

Cooperstown, NY with the Baseball Museum and Hall of Fame. The area hosts kid's baseball camps all summer. Home of James Fenimore Cooper; Last of the Mohicans. The town lives on tourism, nice eateries (they zoned out the fast food and chains), hotels and B&Bs, Broadway shows & opera.

Finger Lakes wine region in NY. Brought back the agriculture, wine and champagne that were their traditional roots. Watkins Glen is in the area. Home of Glenn Curtiss and his airplanes. Great museum to visit, very interesting guy.

Quechee Gorge, VT. Okay, it's a hole in the ground with some nice skiing nearby but look what they have done with that. People are making a living.

Ogunquit, ME. Nice ocean beach, nice restaurants and hotels. Friendly to "diverse" clientele. Can't drive through there in the summer they attract so many visitors. Ogunquit Playhouse summer theater that attracts notable actors.


So what is Maine's hand it was dealt? We have a "brand." We have ocean coasts, lakes and woods in relatively wild states--nature about as natural as can be seen in the eastern US. Outdoor recreation: skiing, snowmobiles, 100-Mile Wilderness section of the AT, fishing, camping, boating, hiking. The whole lobster thing . Clam Festival. That is what we have to work with. We should seek to do those things better and in more attractive ways that suit a wider variety of budgets.

All of that exists within an easy drive of many millions of people with disposable income. We should work to preserve and improve that Maine vacation/get-away heritage that goes back to the early 1900's. We should not strive to be something we are not and cannot be competitive at.

In particular we should not destroy our strengths while reaching for unattainable goals that are more suited to other areas. I see that as misguided policy that is pursued by some of our politicians.

Getting back to the thread topic, I don't think people are as likely to leave an upbeat area that has a vibrant economy no matter what the weather is.

It is clear to see you have thought about this quite a bit. A nice sentiment but perhaps one weakness. What happens if the economy to the south down turns and the tourists no longer have the money to vacation in Maine?
Best to build in some resilience with forest products ,fishing and agriculture and perhaps some high tech manufacturing to put the eggs in as many baskets as possible.

 

[300UGUY]

It is clear to see you have thought about this quite a bit. A nice sentiment but perhaps one weakness. What happens if the economy to the south down turns and the tourists no longer have the money to vacation in Maine?
Best to build in some resilience with forest products ,fishing and agriculture and perhaps some high tech manufacturing to put the eggs in as many baskets as possible.

Yeah, chase the "hi tech" manufacturing. Like every other state, and country. Manufacturing seems to be a carnival show these days, they locate where they get the best deal, paid for by taxpayers, then relocate when that well runs dry. And what do these manufacturing jobs pay? - as little as they can get away with.