Bankruptcy Chaper 7

/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #1  

Ken

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Don't know if proper forum but has become a factor in Rural Living.

Was notified a year ago that a small company I had invested in went into bankruptcy and chose Chapter 7 instead of 13.
Since I hadn't had (36 sheets of paper signed like a bank does) It is indicated that there will be no funds to return.

Has anyone won or been involved in this type of Legal Theft.

Had a lawyer until the bankruptcy notice and he backed out . Suggested a another lawyer that said to late to get involved

Is a Fed. bankruptcy judge this big that lawyers will not challenge his decisions.

Not wanting names or legal advise just how did you come out.
ken
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #2  
If you don't have it on paper, you really don't have anything legally.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Even with agreements and promise to pay is not worth a look if a loan or investment. It has to go threw a bank or legal filed papers.
ken
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #4  
Chapter 7 is a liquidation bankruptcy. It all gets sold (except exempt items) and anything that's earned from the sale is divided amongst the creditors. With no legal papers signed, you have nothing to prove you are a creditor. Its not a legal theft, its a failed business investment. Of course, it doesn't seem like that to those who lost money, but, as with all business investing, there is risk. Stinks, but that's the way it is. Always get a contract in writing. Sorry for your pain, but take it as a life lesson. :thumbdown:
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #5  
There can be different classes of creditors who are treated differently by the judge overseeing the bankruptcy.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #6  
Don't know if proper forum but has become a factor in Rural Living.

Was notified a year ago that a small company I had invested in went into bankruptcy and chose Chapter 7 instead of 13.
Since I hadn't had (36 sheets of paper signed like a bank does) It is indicated that there will be no funds to return.

Has anyone won or been involved in this type of Legal Theft.

Had a lawyer until the bankruptcy notice and he backed out . Suggested a another lawyer that said to late to get involved

Is a Fed. bankruptcy judge this big that lawyers will not challenge his decisions.

Not wanting names or legal advise just how did you come out.
ken

When you say "invested in," do you mean you bought equity, e.g., stock or a limited partnership interest? If so, equity holders are at the end of the line, behind creditors. You would have been given the opportunity by the bankruptcy court, with a deadline, to file a "proof of interest," but it would be rare in the extreme for there to be enough assets to make any distribution to interest holders.

If you mean you made a loan to the company, then you were either a secured creditor (e.g., the bank probably had some form of collateral and would be secured to the extent of its value, unsecured for any deficiencey), or just an unsecured lender along with other unsecured lenders, trade creditors, tort claimants, etc. The debtor is required to schedule all known debt, and if yours was listed on the schedules, you would have been entitled to whatever distribution, if any, the creditors in the same class received (unless the Trustee in Bankruptcy objected to your claim and won). If you were not listed, or were listed but were not satisfied with the amount scheduled, you were entitled to file a "proof of claim" by a specific deadline. You should have received notice from the court of that deadline. In a Ch. 7, the court appoints a Trustee in Bankruptcy to gather the assets, evaluate the merit of claims, and to make distributions in accordance with statutory requirements.

The bankruptcy judge oversees the process and adjudicates disputes, including the merits of any claims that are objected to, but it is the Bankruptcy Code that determines who gets what, and the Trustee who liquidates the assets and makes the distributions. It is certainly technically possible to establish a claim without written proof, but it is tough for obvious reasons. Presumably the lawyer you had before the Ch. 7 filing advised you on the merit of your pre-bankruptcy claim, and what would be necessary to prove it. If you had enough proof before the filing, then you had enough proof afterwards. The way you'd have to go about asserting it is what changed.

Can't tell from your post, but from your last sentence it sounds like your claim (or interest, if equity) might have been adjudicated by the bankruptcy judge, and a decision made to deny it. If so, there was an appeals process available. Lawyers challenge bankruptcy judge decisions very often, if they see a legal basis for doing it. In many cases, though, it would mean throwing good money after bad.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Before receiving the Bankruptcy notice there was a legal lawsuit to recover funds. as agreed in loan.
Except the owner of co. had spent down all value and then IRS got in the game.

Seems there was a period of years the taxes were not paid. So bank got the first claim and remainder IRS will be selling .
My portion is listed but no funds to get returned. I was interested if anyone had been in this type if situation and was able to receive funds.
The comment Legal Theft is due to know where cattle and tractors are purchased by check and hauled away . To have check bounce and then be notified of bankruptcy so unable to sue to get a return.
The person filing the chapter 7 is able to continue to operate business, farm or dairy and be free of debt.

At the expense of some one willing to invest in the company.

If not legal theft maybe good business practice?
ken
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #8  
It's no consolation but this recent paper mill bankruptcy result is not much better. The comments from area businesses that are left hanging indicate that they knew it was a gamble to be owed since the mills future has been uncertain for a long time now, and they try to deal with at-risk customers on a strictly cash before delivery basis. I guess for checks tendered that would mean it has to clear first.

That said, in a one-horse town (really an entire region) it's hard to balance needing the business and needing the income I suppose.


Great Northern Paper mill sold at bankruptcy auction, but future uncertain - The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram

Creditors for Great Northern Paper are split into two categories: secured and unsecured creditors. Secured creditors, which include the town of East Millinocket and two Louisiana-based financing agencies, are owed more than $42 million and will be paid first out of proceeds.

The unsecured creditors, which are mostly Katahdin-area businesses, are owed $22.6 million. Perrino reached a compromise in November with various stakeholders to secure what’s known as a “carve out” to protect and reserve funds for the unsecured creditors.

The carve out was to return 30 percent of the proceeds from the sale of the mill to unsecured creditors. However, because the compromise contained a cap, which Creswell admitted he never expected to be met, the unsecured creditors will not receive the full 30 percent. Instead, they’ll split $1.34 million among them.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #9  
At the expense of some one willing to invest in the company.
Sadly, your investment was in the person, the wrong person.

If not legal theft maybe good business practice?
No one is claiming this is a good business practice.

Caveat emptor.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #10  
There can be different classes of creditors who are treated differently by the judge overseeing the bankruptcy.

Dave is right - different classes of "stake holders" (as opposed to creditors). If I remember correctly, the IRS will be first in line, followed by the secured creditors (people who made loans specifying certain collateral for the loan), unsecured creditors (usually vendors or if there were any "signature only" loans made to the company), preferred stockholders (a class of equity), the common stockholders.

The reality of situations like this is that there is usually nothing left over for anyone else after the IRS and the secured creditors get a share of what's owed them. I've had this happen to me twice in my business career. Fortunately, what was owed me was for services as opposed to inventory that I had paid for so I was out my time (and opportunity cost) as opposed to hard goods that I had paid for. Of course that was little consolation as I still had wages, rent, etc. to pay.

If it's any consolation to you, if the IRS is involved, the owner may not be free just to go about his business. They may be stepping in line to have his customers pay them directly and they would pass along a portion to him if the business continues to operate. Also, depending on what he owes them, he may be personally liable for certain amounts. If he owes them for the taxes that he's withheld from employees paychecks but never remitted, he can't just walk away from that. The IRS will hold him personally responsible for paying that and he may end up having to also liquidate personal assets (if any) to satisfy that debt to them. Or they will put him on a payment plan.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #11  
I'm sure threepoint described the judge's role more accurately as one of oversight of an agreement previously hashed out. I suppose the judge could reject, ask for modification, or accept the agreed terms before the oversight stage begins? Not in my area of experience, fortunately I guess.
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #12  
The comment Legal Theft is due to know where cattle and tractors are purchased by check and hauled away . To have check bounce and then be notified of bankruptcy so unable to sue to get a return.
The person filing the chapter 7 is able to continue to operate business, farm or dairy and be free of debt.
Per ABI Consumer Bankruptcy Committee Newsletter it appears that IF it can be proven that the buyer wrote the check knowing that it would bounce, they could be subject to criminal fraud charges and they MAY not be dischargable in bankruptcy.

Aaron Z
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Per ABI Consumer Bankruptcy Committee Newsletter it appears that IF it can be proven that the buyer wrote the check knowing that it would bounce, they could be subject to criminal fraud charges and they MAY not be dischargable in bankruptcy.

Aaron Z
I helped load a trailer load pregnant pedigreed cows and saw the driver show proof of financial information. Don't know what was shown.
Owner took the check and next day went to town deposited the check. Then a phone call told him the check bounced.
The cattle were in Indiana and when he contacted the buyer he had already filed Chapter 7 .

Local lawyer suggested to get advice from Indiana which was done . This went on for 4 years when it was decided that the buyer. could keep and no debt was due. Now the cattle are gone don't know where .

When #7 is filed cannot contact the person or file a lawsuit against him he is free to go on and forget you if so says the judge.
This is where I asked has anyone had this happen to them and what did they do.

When the feds. and IRS. get started there is no end until money is gone.
ken
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #14  
If he had knowingly do so in buying the cows with a bad check then I would say fraud, even if he did file ch 7. Owner defrauded should have gone and got the cows back on day one with force as it was theft by deception. 4 years later might not be much he can do but file in local (where guy took possession and wrote bad check) legal system for the bounced check.


otherwise use the losses carried forward against taxes due and deduct all of it.

m
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #15  
Everyone has skipped over the fact that the lawyers involved will always get paid first, second and last!
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #16  
The GM scam changed the rules forever.

mark
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7 #17  
Everyone has skipped over the fact that the lawyers involved will always get paid first, second and last!

very true that is why they are very pro-Congress and often involved in writing laws that only they can interpret it as well as preventing others from even attempting to defend against them.

Now back to the other question was hearing that now if someone owes a debt then you can go after their Social Security even... :eek: yep

M
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7
  • Thread Starter
#19  
If he had knowingly do so in buying the cows with a bad check then I would say fraud, even if he did file ch 7. Owner defrauded should have gone and got the cows back on day one with force as it was theft by deception. 4 years later might not be much he can do but file in local (where guy took possession and wrote bad check) legal system for the bounced check.


otherwise use the losses carried forward against taxes due and deduct all of it.

m
Spiker reading directly from my notice .
Creditors May Not Take Certain Actions. Chapter 7 filing of bankruptcy case automatically stays certain collection and other actions against the debtor and the debtors. property
If you attempt to collect a debt or take other action in violation of bankruptcy code you may be penalized.
common examples include contacting the debtor by telephone, mail or other wise to demand repayment; taking
action to collect money or repossessing the debtors property. starting or continuing of lawsuit foreclosures:
And it goes on and on.
Now some where in this it says to leave the dead beat alone to enjoy the fruits of legal theft.
And in 8 years he can again file chapter 7.

Now the filing income tax deduction where is this found in the tax code. I find only 50 % deduction prorated over years.
ken
 
/ Bankruptcy Chaper 7
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Everyone has skipped over the fact that the lawyers involved will always get paid first, second and last!
Stimw
I agree with you on this and can deduct the expense from my taxes.

Amazing how a lawyer talks big and is able to get things done then at mention of Chapter 7 curls his tail and charges you to tell you its over for him.
ken
 
 
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