Hydro vs Gear Drive ??

mcd176 · Jul 4, 2014

Hello All,

I sold my Kubota L4200 several months ago and have been looking a tractors to replace it since I sold it, I will be purchasing something in the 40-50 HP range, compact line tractor, I have looked at all the brands and due to finances will be buying used, I am wanting to spend 18K to 25K and would like another cabbed tractor if I can find one, my biggest problem is that I always liked a gear drive tractor but most of the ones I have looked at, most recently a Kubota L4240 are all hydro, I will be using the machine to finish mow, brush hog, move round bales and box blade, I really need input on how well a hydro runs compared to gear, my biggest concern is pulling logs up hills out of my woods, how much HP does a hydro rob? the only hydro I use is my dads Kubota B2150 but I have only finished mowed with it. Any advice/experience is appreciated.

Mike

GManBart · Jul 4, 2014

Seriously?

jeff9366 · Jul 4, 2014

mcd176 said:
My biggest concern is pulling logs up hills out of my woods.

HST develops highest torque at lowest operating speeds. For pulling logs up hills HST would by your optimum transmission choice.

Your horsepower question is really not germane. It would be germane if your primary use was pulling ground contact implements down LONG, FLAT, fields. For your logs-up-hills use HST will transfer power more efficiently to the wheels.

Kubota is renowned for the quality of their HST transmissions.

k0ua · Jul 4, 2014

jeff9366 said:
HST develops highest torque at lowest operating speeds. For pulling logs up hills HST would by your optimum choice.

Your horsepower question is really not germane. It would be germane if your primary use was pulling ground contact implements down LONG, FLAT, fields. For your logs-up-hills use HST will transfer power more efficiently to the wheels.

Kubota is renowned for the quality of their HST transmissions.

This pretty well says it all.. AND why do you think all you can find is hydro's? The majority of tractor's sold in this size are hydro's. With a hydro you will be able to pull with ever increasing force to get a load moving without jerking. It is ideal for pulling over trees also, because you can increase the pulling force gradually without a sudden jerk.

Bluegill2 · Jul 4, 2014

I agree with Gman, it's all be said.

That said, I'll stick with gear drive myself...

oldpilgrim · Jul 4, 2014

Have you ever needed more power but no more speed?

There's nothing more frustrating to me than pulling something or pushing hard into something, needing more power but not wanting to or be able to go any faster.

Think of a walk behind snow blower. You need it to go into the pile of snow that the road plow just pushed into your driveway, hard and packed. You aim the blower at the pile and it bogs down in the hard packed snow. You can't go any faster into the hard snow but you need the auger to turn with more power to chew the packed mess up, but you can't make it happen as the wheels go faster when you give it more power.

If you had an HST on the snow blower, you could speed up the engine, back off on the HST and accomplish what you need...more power, no more speed.

Same with the tractor, if you need more power but no more speed, because the ground you're plowing got harder or hillier, or the snow/dirt/rocks you're pushing got heavier, throttle up, back off on the drive pedal.....more power, no more speed to get the job done easier.

Ever used an fel for removing snow/dirt on a manual shift tractor with clutch? After going forward to scoop and clutch and back to reposition and clutch, then forward to dump and clutch, then back to reposition and clutch, then forward to scoop and clutch and repeat a several hundred times every hour, your left leg will feel like you want to cut it off.

I've been driving a 4 speed crunch box tractor/fel for over 25 years, my next tractor, which arrives next week, is an HST.

mcd176 · Jul 4, 2014

First of all I am sorry that the thread has been discussed before, I didn't find what I was needing answered! But a BIG Thank You too Oldpilgram, your explanation was very helpful.

k0ua · Jul 4, 2014

oldpilgrim said:
Have you ever needed more power but no more speed?

There's nothing more frustrating to me than pulling something or pushing hard into something, needing more power but not wanting to or be able to go any faster.

Think of a walk behind snow blower. You need it to go into the pile of snow that the road plow just pushed into your driveway, hard and packed. You aim the blower at the pile and it bogs down in the hard packed snow. You can't go any faster into the hard snow but you need the auger to turn with more power to chew the packed mess up, but you can't make it happen as the wheels go faster when you give it more power.

If you had an HST on the snow blower, you could speed up the engine, back off on the HST and accomplish what you need...more power, no more speed.

Same with the tractor, if you need more power but no more speed, because the ground you're plowing got harder or hillier, or the snow/dirt/rocks you're pushing got heavier, throttle up, back off on the drive pedal.....more power, no more speed to get the job done easier.

Ever used an fel for removing snow/dirt on a manual shift tractor with clutch? After going forward to scoop and clutch and back to reposition and clutch, then forward to dump and clutch, then back to reposition and clutch, then forward to scoop and clutch and repeat a several hundred times every hour, your left leg will feel like you want to cut it off.

I've been driving a 4 speed crunch box tractor/fel for over 25 years, my next tractor, which arrives next week, is an HST.

Maybe you can put off that left knee replacement for a few years now

You are going to love the hydro.

oldpilgrim · Jul 4, 2014

I got used to the hst in my Cub. I got real good with the crunch box in my Fergie, I could do stuff I never thought possible with it, but the hydro is so much easier to manage and maneuver precisely.

Some people complain about the noise that an hst makes. My Cub growls a bit but the Mahindra coming next week is absolutely silent and so smooth it's almost weird.

I can't wait til it's here.

Poopdeck Pappy · Jul 4, 2014

There is a place for gear tractors, but the uses you listed primarily call for HST. On flat land pulling ground engaging implements, I'd rather have a gear tractor. But for any loader work, HST is the ticket. And since you have hills, that should cement the HST decision right there.

The HST does rob some power, so a gear tractor will out pull an HST tractor if you have identical tractors side by side one with each type of tranny. But the answer to that is to buy a bigger HST tractor if you need more power, not go with gears.

DK35vince · Jul 4, 2014

oldpilgrim said:
I've been driving a 4 speed crunch box tractor/fel for over 25 years, my next tractor, which arrives next week, is an HST.

There is Night and day difference between a 4 speed crunch box and the more modern Synchronized shuttles, glideshifts and power shifts with 8, 12 or more forward and reverse gears.
So much easier to use its not even comparable IMO.

TripleR · Jul 4, 2014

DK35vince said:
There is Night and day difference between a 4 speed crunch box and the more modern Synchronized shuttles, glideshifts and power shifts with 8, 12 or more forward and reverse gears.
So much easier to use its not even comparable IMO.

Agreed and really narrows the gap in ease of use making the "right" choice even harder. Our M8540HDC 12/12 Hydraulic Shuttle Shift will pretty much match our L5740HSTC load for load doing FEL work or about anything else. It can be significantly more tiring on a long day, but for short ones not so much.

For a CUT, I still prefer an HST, but a good case can be made either way.

Deerherd · Jul 4, 2014

DK35vince said:
There is Night and day difference between a 4 speed crunch box and the more modern Synchronized shuttles, glideshifts and power shifts with 8, 12 or more forward and reverse gears.
So much easier to use its not even comparable IMO.

You are so right. These HST vs gear threads aren't comparing a power shuttle because once you learn how to drive one you won't want an HST transmission. The only time I use my clutch is to start the thing. If you can operate a turn signal you can go forward to reverse till the cows come home without ever touching the clutch.

The HST is certainly NOT more intuitive for pulling logs uphill, most times you will need to let up on the pedal to get in the power band versus more pedal = more power of the power shuttle. And make sure when you go down that steep hill to get those logs to tow up you have it in FWD or you could be in for a VERY exciting ride! ( I had to have about 4" of the seat of my Kioti DK surgically removed from my behind after an exciting ride downhill!)

I can adjust the speed the shuttle engages between fast and slow so pushing into a pile with your bucket where you would let up on the pedal of an HST transmission, I drop it into neutral, start to curl the bucket and put it into reverse. Easy peasy and never touch the clutch.

Plus I don't have to listen to that whining. I hate whining!

With 40f and 20r speeds and electronic hi-lo I always have the correct ground speed vs engine RPM's to run any implement.

To be totally fair, very few smaller tractors have power shuttle, and none have the electronic hi/lo that a I'm aware of.

Good luck!

GManBart · Jul 4, 2014

Deerherd said:
You are so right. These HST vs gear threads aren't comparing a power shuttle because once you learn how to drive one you won't want an HST transmission. The only time I use my clutch is to start the thing. If you can operate a turn signal you can go forward to reverse till the cows come home without ever touching the clutch.

The HST is certainly NOT more intuitive for pulling logs uphill, most times you will need to let up on the pedal to get in the power band versus more pedal = more power of the power shuttle. And make sure when you go down that steep hill to get those logs to tow up you have it in FWD or you could be in for a VERY exciting ride! ( I had to have about 4" of the seat of my Kioti DK surgically removed from my behind after an exciting ride downhill!)

I can adjust the speed the shuttle engages between fast and slow so pushing into a pile with your bucket where you would let up on the pedal of an HST transmission, I drop it into neutral, start to curl the bucket and put it into reverse. Easy peasy and never touch the clutch.

Plus I don't have to listen to that whining. I hate whining!

With 40f and 20r speeds and electronic hi-lo I always have the correct ground speed vs engine RPM's to run any implement.

To be totally fair, very few smaller tractors have power shuttle, and none have the electronic hi/lo that a I'm aware of.

Good luck!

Power shuttles are great, but they still can't do all the exact same things that an HST setup can....most, but not all. Say you're building a retaining wall with railroad ties (bad idea, but just go with the concept). You pick up tie with your grapple, maneuver the tie into position, hold pressure against the wall uprights with the HST in low range, set the brake, jump down and secure it with big lag bolts. I don't see anybody doing that with a power shuttle. I also can't believe you could creep forward or backwards at 1/20th MPH or 1/50th MPH if you wanted to. My neighbor needed me to help hang the tailgate on his dump truck a while back....I hung it from my bucket teeth, raised it up, and crept forward while he stood to the side ready to slide the pins in. I was able to creep forward so slowly that getting the pins lined up was so easy it took only seconds per side. He said that normally takes him 10-15min to get everything lined up perfectly.

I don't dislike power shuttles at all, and the only tractor I own right now is a geared machine, but there are places and situations where nothing can replace an HST setup.

k0ua · Jul 4, 2014

I actually did something close to your retaining wall thing the other day. I grappled up several large cedar logs up against a sloping bank, just like you said, set the brakes, hopped off and drilled holes and pounded in rebar to hold them. You could have done it without a hydro, but it sure was a heck of a lot easier with one. If it is precision work, hydro's are the best. Hydro shuttle is great, and If I had a larger tractor, I am sure I would have one. But in these smaller CUTS its hydrostatic for me.

DK35vince · Jul 4, 2014

GManBart said:
Power shuttles are great, but they still can't do all the exact same things that an HST setup can....most, but not all. Say you're building a retaining wall with railroad ties (bad idea, but just go with the concept). You pick up tie with your grapple, maneuver the tie into position, hold pressure against the wall uprights with the HST in low range, set the brake, jump down and secure it with big lag bolts. I don't see anybody doing that with a power shuttle. I also can't believe you could creep forward or backwards at 1/20th MPH or 1/50th MPH if you wanted to. My neighbor needed me to help hang the tailgate on his dump truck a while back....I hung it from my bucket teeth, raised it up, and crept forward while he stood to the side ready to slide the pins in. I was able to creep forward so slowly that getting the pins lined up was so easy it took only seconds per side. He said that normally takes him 10-15min to get everything lined up perfectly.

I don't dislike power shuttles at all, and the only tractor I own right now is a geared machine, but there are places and situations where nothing can replace an HST setup.

I still don't agree.
In my lowest gear at full throttle it will only go 1 MPH.
At idle in low gear I can creep ahead 1 inch, 2 inch, 1/2". What ever I need.
I do believe I could set those same retaining walls with my gear machine.
You may not believe, but I do and I wouldn't hesitate to try it.

k0ua · Jul 4, 2014

DK35vince said:
I still don't agree.
In my lowest gear at full throttle it will only go 1 MPH.
At idle in low gear I can creep ahead 1 inch, 2 inch, 1/2". What ever I need.
I do believe I could set those same retaining walls with my gear machine.
You may not believe, but I do and I wouldn't hesitate to try it.

I don't doubt that you could for even a moment. But you are a skilled operator with a tractor that you are used to operating for a long time.
A guy that that just got his tractor last week likely couldn't however. But he could if he had a hydro.

MtnViewRanch · Jul 4, 2014

k0ua said:
I don't doubt that you could for even a moment. But you are a skilled operator with a tractor that you are used to operating for a long time.
A guy that that just got his tractor last week likely couldn't however. But he could if he had a hydro.

Have to agree, a skilled operator can and does do everything with gears that a person can do with an HST. That's the great thing about HST, it is so forgiving that it makes the average operator look like a skilled one.

murphy1244 · Jul 4, 2014

k0ua said:
I don't doubt that you could for even a moment. But you are a skilled operator with a tractor that you are used to operating for a long time.
A guy that that just got his tractor last week likely couldn't however. But he could if he had a hydro.

Especially if he is using r4 tires instead of r1s.:stirthepot:

TomSeller · Jul 4, 2014

If we didn't have tractor transmissions to discuss, we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

That said, there is a place and duty for each type. Also an excuse to have more than one tractor.