Synthetic vs. Dino. By a Mechanic.

[Copperhead]

I gathered from reading some posts that some confused used oil analysis (UOA) with used oil monitor or oil life monitor. Definately different things. I use UOA regularly on my commercial truck engines. Has very little to do with extending oil drains to fantastic levels, though I do exceed the OEM recommended drains by 30%. It has more to do with monitoring what is going on inside the engine. Lead, Iron, copper, tin, chromium, silicon, sodium, potassium, etc levels all have a meaning in that oil sample. And based on patterns that develop over multiple oil samples, you can determine when something doesn't seem right and needs checked. A lot of semi truck owners swear by a 10,000 mile oil change interval, even though no OEM has a standard recomendation of less than 15,000 miles, and I have never changed oil less than 20,000 miles in my commercial diesels since the early 1990's. And every one of my diesels has gotten over 1 million miles before ever being opened up for a major repair. UOA's are solid evidence in any warranty dispute. Be it within or outside the OEM recommendations.

With modern CJ-4 HDEO, the gap between performance of regular vs synthetic oils got closer. Chevron has done a lot of testing recently showing their dino 400LE 15w40 is good for up to 70,000 mile oil changes on class 8 truck engines. Unless you have a real need for a synthetic, most folks really are just spending more than they need to for solid protection of their engine. I will concede that some engines "prefer" a particular brand over another. It is the same little mystery as to why a particular .22 rifle does better with a particular brand of .22 ammo while a friends .22 rifle does better on another brand. Both brands are good, but for some reason, the rifles do not like the same brand. Engines seem to have similar quirks nowadays. One engine does great on Rotella while another gets mediocre results with it. That second engine seems to prefer Chevron Delo or Mobil Delvac. Just the slight changes in oil additive compositions can affect how an engine relates to that brand of oil. Just one of life's little mysteries.

 

[daugen]

I gathered from reading some posts that some confused used oil analysis (UOA) with used oil monitor or oil life monitor. Definately different things.

:confused2: Yup. Thanks.
The monitor is clearly not as smart or informative as a UOA.
Frankly curious as to how smart they are, and how the progression of tech
has advanced with them.

 

[carmedic310]

Amsoil has a so called warrantee.If you first run their brand engine cleaner thru your engine.Then change to their synthetic oil(very pricy)and use their filter.Change the filter every 3000 miles and top off the oil(never change the oil)if you ever have a oil related failure they will repair or replace your engine.I for one am not a big fan of most companies so called warrantee policy as its almost never a problem related to their product.But anyways this is what the local amsoil guy told me.I do understand that synthetic oil does not break down but like mentioned in this thread your oil does act kinda like a sponge for any contaminates.As far as amsoil's engine cleaner I think thats just another way of making a few more bucks.You can go back and forth with synthetic os dino anytime you want contrary to what most folks think.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out synthetic blend is synthetic and dino mixed.With all that said i still believe synthetic is the way to go.If its good enough for the space shuttle its good enough to me.I have done a lot of research on it before I started using it

 

[Copperhead]

Nothing against synthetics. In many applications they are what is needed. I will always use synthetics in my transmission and drive axles. Both due to the better qualities it offers and the 50% higher warranty by the OEM by using synthetics in their components (750,000 mile warranty vs 500,000 mile warranty). But most folks really have no real need for synthetics in every component of everything they run. Many folks will never wear out a conventional oil between oil changes. If anything, they may have higher levels of water contamination due to condensation from not running the engine long enough or often enough. That will fail a synthetic just as much as a conventional oil. And using the space shuttle for any analogy is spurious at best. Challenger blew up and Columbia burned up on re-entry. Not due to any oil related problem, but not a very good comparison either. I know of no one who uses their space shuttle to farm, go to the local hardware store, or go to church on Sunday. That is falling for the old line of "if one thing is good, then the other thing must be better" marketing ploy. And this also doesn't mean much if you are only using a few quarts a year. But some of us go thru several drums of oil a year and cost vs performance is more critical. And Synthetics in engines don't offer the bang for the buck they charge for it except in rare circumstances of environmental conditions or application.

They have a place, indeed. But like most everything, they are a special application type of product that most folks do not need. But it gives them warm fuzzies to spend the extra money and "feel" better. Using the Space shuttle logic you did, then everyone should only buy a 1 ton pickup with roll over bars installed for basic transportation. After all, a vehicle like that provides better occupant protection than a Prius. Right? I too have done a lot of research into the synthetic vs convential debate, and also have well over 4 million miles actual experience in testing various oil brands with hundreds of used oil analysis samples (all at my cost) from the Dalton haul road to the Rio Grande. Except in special applications, there is no real performance edge of a synthetic over a conventional in the typical engine. Just more cost. While I do not tear apart engines for a living to inspect things on a whim, I do shoulder the cost of engines that cost more than the typical complete automobile most folks buy. It is imperative that I get the solid results at the best operating cost.

 

[carmedic310]

oops didn't know there was a rocket scientist on board

 

[murphy1244]

oops didn't know there was a rocket scientist on board

Where did that come from?

 

[daugen]

I know of no one who uses their space shuttle to farm,

from there?....

 

[TheGoose]

Very well, thought out reply. Thanks for the insight.

 

[sw03]

Very well, thought out reply. Thanks for the insight.

This topic is nothing new. Been here since 02 and many posters (gee dargo, cowboydoc, gsxr1100, soundguy etc) come and go (me too). This posted statement "50% higher warranty by the OEM by using synthetics " is nothing new...And will the sheep buy it?

I was an Amsoil dealer for years (15+) and stopped and there is no published spec's that say engines will last longer etc...use what you want and XX intervals and be fine. I still use cheap oil and Lc20 and comes out mint (better than Amsoil at <50 less cost)...

If you are going to post a sales pitch, post real data. I have posted my UOA's with and without certain items (same engine/car etc) years ago and good info. I almost give up on thie forum (some will be happy). Why, too many issues with the owner, users etc. Makes you wonder on why.

YMMV

 

[BigBoyinMS]

I love oil threads for the entertainment as much as for the information... and, more often than not, misinformation. They are REALLY entertaining on some of the motorcycle forums. :shocked:

Here's my nickels worth on a couple of items...
1. Changing to synthetic on a high mileage engine won't make it "come apart". What it may do is cause oil leaks. That's because the synthetic will start dissolving and cleaning all of the buildup and varnish and if you happen to have a hard or nicked seal that is only keeping oil in because it's covered in "gunk" then it will start leaking.

2. Synthetic "can" increase your fuel mileage. I have an '04 Ram 1-ton with the Cummins. I've kept a record of every gallon of fuel that's gone through that engine along with all maintenance. I used to use 15w40 Rotella but wanted to change over to synthetic for it's better qualities. I found that 5w40 Rotella Synthetic wasn't that much more per gallon so I started using it. On the first tank full of fuel after changing to the 5w40 my mileage went up although nothing else changed as far as where and how I drove. I called it a fluke at that point but on the next tank full I made a straight through trip to Houston and back. And every tank full since has shown the same increase of right at 11%. I'm not one to expect a mileage increase from oil or additives... but I'll take it!

 

[daugen]

I love oil threads for the entertainment as much as for the information... and, more often than not, misinformation. They are REALLY entertaining on some of the motorcycle forums. :shocked:

Here's my nickels worth on a couple of items...
1. Changing to synthetic on a high mileage engine won't make it "come apart". What it may do is cause oil leaks. That's because the synthetic will start dissolving and cleaning all of the buildup and varnish and if you happen to have a hard or nicked seal that is only keeping oil in because it's covered in "gunk" then it will start leaking.

2. Synthetic "can" increase your fuel mileage. I have an '04 Ram 1-ton with the Cummins. I've kept a record of every gallon of fuel that's gone through that engine along with all maintenance. I used to use 15w40 Rotella but wanted to change over to synthetic for it's better qualities. I found that 5w40 Rotella Synthetic wasn't that much more per gallon so I started using it. On the first tank full of fuel after changing to the 5w40 my mileage went up although nothing else changed as far as where and how I drove. I called it a fluke at that point but on the next tank full I made a straight through trip to Houston and back. And every tank full since has shown the same increase of right at 11%. I'm not one to expect a mileage increase from oil or additives... but I'll take it!

that's a serious improvement. What do you think of Rotella synthetic for diesel tractors?
I was actually surprised that the local dealers Kubota branded oil was not overpriced, nor cheap for sure. Always wondered who made it and what it was.

 

[Copperhead]

This topic is nothing new. Been here since 02 and many posters (gee dargo, cowboydoc, gsxr1100, soundguy etc) come and go (me too). This posted statement "50% higher warranty by the OEM by using synthetics " is nothing new...And will the sheep buy it?

The posted statement I made about the OEM extending the warranty is true. Just check with Eaton corp and Meritor corp regarding their transmission and drive axles on commercial trucks. They will extend the warranty from 500,000 miles to 750,000 miles if owner uses synthetics in them. I never stated in any way something like this regarding engines. Here is some published data sw03 for you since you requested it. I'll let you dig up something from Eaton corp to try and prove me wrong. Good luck.

Eaton Roadranger warranty guide....See page 8 note 3 on line haul truck warranty.
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/ct_126924.pdf

 

[speedyspider2050]

WOW.... I didn't want to start a shooting gallery when I started this post...As I stated in the beginning and some people misinterpreted it...THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AS A MECHANIC.... Not written in stone... Just my personal experience with oils... What I alone have seen and what I personally prefer... Not recommending any type oils to anybody or badmouthing any oils or saying I have seen an engine fail due to oil.... It was simply a post that might help some people decide what they might want to test out and get their own results. So I hope this clears things up a bit. Each application is different for everyone and we all have and use what we like for oil. I to have done all the tests and research and I just prefer synthetic over conventional...Just my personal preference ..... Preston

 

[Copperhead]

Well, I only shoot back when shot at. I like both synthetics and conventional oils. Which I choose is based on a number of factors. I just don't have an absolute love affair with either. I use both types. I like and use synthetic engine oil in my Jeep Liberty Diesel. i use synthetic Delo 400 LE 5w40 in my Semi in the winter months, and use conventional Delo 400 LE 15w40 in the summer months. Even then, I only use synthetic in it during winter months due to engine being shut down without being able to be plugged in all the time away from home. The synthetic makes for easier starts and getting lube up on top the engine quicker. My CUT gets a blend that I can get very reasonably priced at my local farm and home store. I use synthetics exclusively in all of the various transmissions and drive train components of everything I own, primarily because they tend to be more shear stable than conventional oils. And in the Semi because of the extended warranty issue.

Oil discussions can quickly turn into something like religious discussions. Frankly, I find it amazing how people will line up on one side or the other and refuse to see how different brands and types of oils/lubes work in varying applications. This is definately an area where there is no cookie cutter, one size fits all solution. At least we have a broad range of choices available.

 

[Travelover]

I've never run synthetic until this year because I got a deal on Mobil 1 at Costco. It feels really good to brag that I run synthetic oil, though. Kind of like paying the big bucks for a Honda generator. Well worth it just for bragging rights. :laughing:

 

[Z71]

I have used ONLY synthetic lubes since 1975 and only AMSOIL since 1976ish in everything with a motor. In all those years I never changed oil less than once a year and have in the past gone up to 25,000 miles per oil change WITH NO adverse effects. If you gave me any brand of minerial oil for free I would decline and gladly pay for the AMSOIL. Right now I have over 10,000 miles on the oil in my Denali, its not going down any neglicble amount and 1 yr interval will not be up till July and the oil will NOT be changed before that, over 36 yrs of confidence its does what it says it does. No engine, trans or axle I have used it in has ever needed a repair.

 

[mscheer772]

Dumb question-What is dino oil?

 

[Z71]

Slang for oil pumped from the earth...............dinosaurers

 

[dmccarty]

Well, I only shoot back when shot at. I like both synthetics and conventional oils. Which I choose is based on a number of factors. I just don't have an absolute love affair with either. ...

Oil discussions can quickly turn into something like religious discussions. Frankly, I find it amazing how people will line up on one side or the other and refuse to see how different brands and types of oils/lubes work in varying applications. This is definately an area where there is no cookie cutter, one size fits all solution. At least we have a broad range of choices available.

I have been running synthetic oils in my trucks and tractors for years. Why? Because it makes money sense to do so given my circumstances. The wifey's vehicle runs on Dino oil because it is the right type of oil based on her driving.

The truck runs 72-75 miles round trip when I drive to work. This drive is mostly rural highway, with a bit of Interstate, and a touch of city driving. UOA shows I can go 12-14K before needing an oil change. I started using synthetic to give me a bit extra protection and I noticed that the truck started much easier when cold. With dino oil, I would have to use a block heater during the winter which would cost $10ish dollars a month on the power bill. Synthetic gives me a bit more MPG as well. For my driving, synthetic makes money and time sense.

If I lived in our old city house and did not own rural property, using synthetic would almost certainly NOT make money or time sense. The traffic I would drive would be considered severe and I would need to change the oil at 2,500 miles instead of 5,000. UOA proved to me how little stop and go driving it takes to put you in a severe classification. Years ago I had to drive through a town that had what I calle the valley of death. The little town was a cross roads and during drive time the place was a parking lot. I only had to drive through a part of the town so I missed quite a bit of the traffic. If we still lived in our city house, I would and did, spend much more time in stop and go traffic. My driving through that town was only 5 or so miles out of 75ish and maybe 10-15 minutes out of an hour drive time. Not much to worry about. Right? Well UOA showed I had fuel in the oil because of the stop and go traffic! :shocked: Not enough fuel to cause damage but enough to require an oil change. That little bit of stop and go was all it took.

Thankfully, I soon did not have to drive through the valley of death and all was good again. :laughing:

But if I still lived in the city I would have to drive through the valley of death and I would be needed to change oil much sooner as a result. Using synthetic would not make much sense in that situation.

Later,
Dan