Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???

/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #21  
I have not read all the posts , so excuse me if this has been mentioned. I have a Dillon O\A torch. If you practice ALOT you can do all that it says you can do in the ads. I have not used it much to cut with but I have welded copper, aluminum, SS and cast iron. I am not selling them any more so this isn't a sales pitch. I am saying it is worth looking into. Dillon / Henrob 2000 Welding and Cutting Torch

I almost forgot, you will need very low pressure regulators for it.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #22  
The gun is supposed to be held at an angle... if you can't see, you're doing something horribly wrong....

Well I don't doubt that.. but everything I've read says something like 15 degree angle max., and lots say to push rather than drag.. I don't have much practice with it yet, but my welds seem to be getting worse the more I do it.:laughing:
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #23  
I was taught by my grandfather how to weld properly with O/A. I can't remember when the last time it was that I did, however (cost). We had a Tombstone that was anchient, and when it finally wouldn't spark anymore, I bought a Hobart Handler 175. Demo unit, paid I believe, $775 with cart, cover, J size full tank, regulator, and 1 spool wire. I have used it for all of my fab work since 2001, up to and including my current log splitter project. have probably run 30+ 10# rolls of .030 thru it, some .023, some .035 and 1 10# stainless, and have never had any problems with it. Only 1 gun liner in 10 years, needs another one now. All I use oxy for anymore is cutting, because I am too cheap to buy a plasma, would be nice, though.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #24  
Well I don't doubt that.. but everything I've read says something like 15 degree angle max., and lots say to push rather than drag.. I don't have much practice with it yet, but my welds seem to be getting worse the more I do it.:laughing:

Push is the "rule of thumb", however on thin material up to 11ga we pull the bead as you don't need as much heat for good penetration. Pushing will give greater penetration as you're pushing the molten metal ahead of you.

Pulling puts less heat into the metal and cuts way down on burn through or warping on thinner metal.

15* is plenty of angle to see if you put your head in the right place.

Mig is all about setup of the machine and technique. Once someone who knows what they're doing shows you how, you'll get much better quickly.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #25  
Are you overwhelmed with all the responses David?

I bought a self powered combo mig/stick machine 25 yrs ago and it is still going strong. All my welding until last year has been done outside real pia for mig to keep the breeze from blowing the gas away but plywood n tarps work. Only use my O/A unit for cutting n preheating for bending and only use the mig for aluminum as that is mostly what I weld here, never got set up for steel with it and stick works just fine for steel but not very well the other way around IMO.

Am trying to setup the family nonfarm:D in Oregon up for cheap and couldn't find a decent DC stick machine that was worth the money while I was there last winter, plus trying to find used owner bottles and a torch setup in good shape didnt happen either.

Sorry for rambling on, anyway for Oregon I am looking at some of the combo stick/tig/plasma units and the everlast ones seem pretty good and I like the price. Am waiting to find one somewhere in the NW this winter so I can test it first then I think that is the way I am going to go for the farm.

Good Luck with your decision,

Rick
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Are you overwhelmed with all the responses David?

Am trying to setup the family nonfarm:D in Oregon up for cheap.

Good Luck with your decision,

Rick

Rick,

It is just a bit overwhelming... Much like the advice on buying a tractor was. :D Thank God the welder seems it will be much less expensive at least! :thumbsup:

I will look for a used AC/DC ( I know what that means for electricity, but not for welders!) stick unit as advised above by rankrank1. I will continue to borrow the o/a cutter I have at the moment, and I will DEFINATELY take a local community college class on welding before I start melting metal in my back yard!

I'm trying to set up my family non-farm farm on the cheap just like you are sir! Most of the time I am in the Beg or Borrow stage! :D

Good Luck with your efforts in my old home state as well sir!:thumbsup:

David
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???
  • Thread Starter
#27  
All welders and tools have there place and areas where they excel, but for me tool #1 in a primitive metal working shop is a buzzbox stick welder.

My advice: Start searching Craigslist...

rankrank1,

AWESOME Post. I will eb studying this one for a while and I will follow your advice!

THANK YOU!

David
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #28  
I will look for a used AC/DC ( I know what that means for electricity, but not for welders!) stick unit as advised above by rankrank1. I will continue to borrow the o/a cutter I have at the moment...

It sounds like you'll have it made, AC/DC stick and a gas torch you can borrow. That would suit me quite well for what I can do. My torches can sit idle for long periods, but when I need them, I need them. At one time there was a set a mile away, but that friend was born in 1892 and what he called his, "shirt tail relatives," got them when he left us. I finally got a set when another friend cleared out his late father's shop. So, it all worked out.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #29  
Just want to chime in here... Pretty much EVERYBODY is right, depending on your situation.:laughing:

If you are just starting out and wanting to do some general welding on the cheap, I think the buzz box is the easiest, cheapest way to get started. About 15 years ago I bought an old craftsman 230 amp stick welder for $50.00. Did quite a bit of welding with that old thing, including a couple utility trailers. Not the BEST tool for many purposes, but would get most of the jobs done.

Eventually bought a 110 volt mig (auto body work and sheet metal), and a set of torches (cutting, heat wrench, bending metal, brazing).

Now, I do most of my welding with an old Lincoln Idealarc 300. It is truly a beast - 800+ lbs, 100amp breaker,huge and NOT portable. But again, I got it cheap, and I have the power and space in my shop to support it. I do some tig, but mostly stick. But if I need them, I have the other platforms as well.

Each platform has its specialty, and things it does "better." Like comparing tools to remove a bolt - sometimes a wrench is better than a socket! You really need one of each of them. But in the long run, a whole lot of bolts have been taken off with a crescent wrench.....:thumbsup:

So buy a good used general purpose too for now, and add on as you can afford.

Oh and when t comes to ox/acc, you may be able to meet your needs with one of those little pack setups that plumbers use. Bottles are small and don't last long, but for brazing, heating stuck bolts and LIGHT cutting, they work ok for occasional use and you can often pick them up in pawn shops fairly cheap.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #30  
...I will look for a used AC/DC ( I know what that means for electricity, but not for welders!) stick unit as advised above by rankrank1...

Well in general DC will allow you to run a broader selection of specialty rods and is slighty easier to use in striking the initial arc, maintaining the arc, and welding in out of position areas. If you have DC you will rarely use AC. That said if all you plan to weld is mild steel then AC is fine, cheaper, and even a tad bit more reliable in a buzzbox, but I would opt for the DC capilbility as it gives you more options to grow and speeds the learning curve for a newbie.

Really all a welder is a glorified adjustable voltage converter. The Welding process is designed to be a low volt and high amp process. If welding worked well with high voltage and low amps then we simply could use the AC power from the household circuit panel to weld, but that will not work well.

Take any of the buzzboxes mentioned in my original post (lets have the welder set at wide open setting to keep this simple):
a) Household input power is roughly 230 volt and roughly 40 amp. If welding was a high volt and low amp process then we could simply use the household power but its not as already mentioned which is why the welder is needed
b) At wide open setting on welder AC you have 79 volts Open Circuit voltage and 225 amps of power. OCV voltage of 79 will drop to 30-35 volts when actual welding is occuring. Welding works best right around that 30 volt area - the higher OCV simply makes it easier to strike the initial arc.
c) If the welder has DC capability then a rectifier diode bridge will be used to convert the AC to DC power. More loss will occur in this conversion to DC which is why most DC buzzboxes will be in the 150 amp range.

So what does it all mean:
On AC your arc is actually going out at a frequency of 60 hertz. Just like you lights in your house are actually going out at 60 hertz although nearly impossible see with human eye. There is no such thing as Polarity on AC as the Polarity is switching from positive to negtive at a frequency of 60 hertz. (With no Polarity then kinda think of it as 50% heat into rod and 50% heat into workpiece).

On DC the arc never goes out making it a little easier to maintain an arc and there is such a thing as Polarity with DC. With the Electrode Positive and work negative you will have roughly 67% heat put into the weld rod and 33% heat into workpiece which results in max pentration and is the most common way to run. With DC electrode negative and workpiece positive you have roughly 33% heat put into weld rod and 67% put into workpiece which results in less pentration and can be useful for specialty applications and when welding those metals that are near the thin 16 gauge thickness. Less penetration makes it easier to avoid burn through on thin metals. Many specialty rods like hardfacing rods will only burn on DC. But if all you do is weld mild steel then there are rods that burn fine on AC but these same rods will usually burn 15% better on DC. In short if you have DC you will rarely use AC.

As already pointed out a buzzbox gives you much more than a simple welder. You can also use it to crudely cut metal as well as to heat metal and braze metal with with nearly zero consumables. It gives you a lot for a mere $125 investment (used AC unit) or $250 investment (used AC/DC unit). Only thing it will not do well is weld metal thinner than about 16 gauge (roughly 1/16" thick).
 
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/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???
  • Thread Starter
#31  
Just want to chime in here... Pretty much EVERYBODY is right, depending on your situation.:laughing:

So buy a good used general purpose too for now, and add on as you can afford.

Oh and when t comes to ox/acc, you may be able to meet your needs with one of those little pack setups that plumbers use. Bottles are small and don't last long, but for brazing, heating stuck bolts and LIGHT cutting, they work ok for occasional use and you can often pick them up in pawn shops fairly cheap.

Tenn_Blue,

Great advice! Craigslist and Pawn Shops here I come!

David
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???
  • Thread Starter
#32  
So what does it all mean:
There is no such thing as Polarity on AC as the Polarity is switching from positive to negtive at a frequency of 60 hertz. (With no Polarity then kinda think of it as 50% heat into rod and 50% heat into workpiece).

On DC the arc never goes out making it a little easier to maintain an arc and there is such a thing as Polarity with DC. With the Electrode Positive and work negative you will have roughly 67% heat put into the weld rod and 33% heat into workpiece which results in max pentration and is the most common way to run. With DC electrode negative and workpiece positive you have roughly 33% heat put into weld rod and 67% put into workpiece which results in less pentration and can be useful for specialty applications and when welding those metals that are near the thin 16 gauge thickness. Less penetration makes it easier to avoid burn through on thin metals.

Rankrank1,

I've been a high-tech computer & electronics guy forever (29 years) and I thought I understood AC/DC.

That is a brilliantly clear explanation of how AC/DC applies to WELDING!:thumbsup:

I totally get it now.

Thank you sir!
Be well!

David
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #33  
I have a Dillon O\A torch. If you practice ALOT you can do all that it says you can do in the ads.

If you practice ALOT you can do all those things with a regular torch.

Other than looking like a ray gun instead of a torch handle, I don't see how it can be any different than a regular torch. The FAQ claims the difference is it burns hotter, at 6800F, because of the special mixing chamber, regular torch burns at 6300. Not sure that can be true, there's some limit on how hot fuel mixtures can burn based on chemistry. The ad carefully says the inventor claims it runs at 6800F, it doesn't say it does burn at 6800. Sounds kind of hoaky to me.
 
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/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #34  
Rankrank1,

I've been a high-tech computer & electronics guy forever (29 years) and I thought I understood AC/DC.

That is a brilliantly clear explanation of how AC/DC applies to WELDING!:thumbsup:

I totally get it now.

Thank you sir!
Be well!

David

If you're learning welding by yourself, these instructional videos are useful

Wall Mountain Company, Inc.

They tell you what you need to know to weld stick, MIG, TIG and O/A.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #35  
I've got an AC buzzbox, a small MIG, a set of torches, and a plasma cutter. If I had to start giving them up, the plasma would go first, but I'd have a hard time deciding after that.

If its over 1/8" I prefer the buzzbox. Its not picky about shiny clean steel and if the setup includes heat sucking features it is more forgiving than mig.

Under 1/8" I prefer the mig. Great sheet metal rig!

The torch is used for all my heating and all my dirty cutting. I converted to propane to get rid of my acet. costs.

The plasma only cuts, and I only use it on clean metal to extend tip life. It can gouge too but I'm not set up with the right tips at the moment.

I should add the buzz box can gouge like crazy too with an air-arc setup. You can slice through very thick steel. It uses a copper coated carbon rod and an air nozzle to make plasma to melt and blow away material.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???
  • Thread Starter
#36  
If you're learning welding by yourself, these instructional videos are useful

Wall Mountain Company, Inc.

They tell you what you need to know to weld stick, MIG, TIG and O/A.

I'm on HughesNet Slow&Cr@ppySattelite internet... No VIDEOS for me!

But seriously I plan to take a community college welding class or two before I get too serious.

David
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #37  
Like I said I'm not selling these things. I just know I have welded with a regular torch and with it. I can do things with it I never could with my old rig. The biggest difference is that it runs at such low pressure. It doesn't " blow" the molten metal. Maybe some of you can weld Cast Iron and Aluminum with a regular rig, but I couldn't. Let's just say it is easier with it , not that it is the only gas rig to do it.
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #38  
There has been alot of good advice so far,if it were me,I would get a lincoln ac/dc 225,mig welders are great,there is no doubt,without flux core imo they are a pain. But our applications are different than most. If you have the shop doors open or have to weld outside,it is nearly impossible using shielding gas.If the wind is blowing it will blow your gas away from tip. That is my biggest hangup with the mig,I like fab work with one,but there is not any thing i cant weld with my lincoln. If its away from the shop,I use a miller bobcat. Give me a victor torch and regulators and a stick and I am good shape. My wish list on welders is a TIG. I have been wanting to build a rockcrawler tube buggy from scratch and tig is the way to go for tube. My teacher which started pipeline welding in the fifties,and now still welds on farm equipment,he is semi retired,says there is a welder on every corner,just ask them:laughing:But as far as stick vs oxy/acy,its hard for me to imagine one without the other,a good set of torches compliment any shop/truck with a welder.LUTT
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #39  
....My wish list on welders is a TIG...

Well if you have an AC/DC stick welder you can scratch start TIG weld with it too. All you need is a TIG torch with a bult-in gas valve ($50-$60 on ebay) (a reg or flowmeter which you already have from your Mig outfit) and a bottle of 100% Argon which it sounds like you already have a bottle, but it is probably currently filled with 75% and 25% - do not try tigging with 75/25.

In your case you could be Tig welding for $60 or less as you already have lots of the other stuff needed. Granted it will not be a fancy $2000 Tig rig with foot peddle control and high freq start but it will easily get the job done in a backyard shop on many applications.

I am actually doing this myself. Taking my MIG bottle and having filled 100% argon. I almost always use fluxcore since I weld outside and MIG gas gets blown away easily. Bought a brand new air cooled torch of ebay for $50. will use my reg and hose from the Mig. All I lack is the $10 power adaptor from LWS (or $8 on ebay).

If I only knew a few years ago what I know now, I would have never bought my Mig welder as it is a pricey luxury. Really I could do everything that I need with the AC/DC buzzbox as it is much more versatile and much cheaper to both buy and to operate too.
a) Can easily weld 1/16" thick and thicker metals in stick mode with the buzzbox.
b) Can cut metaowith it or pierce holes in metal cheaply with it.
c) Can heat metal for bending or brazing with it with the Twin Carbon Arc torch.
d) You Can even weld really thin metal with it by spending another $60 to $100 to add old school tig torch to it. Granted the old school tig torch will not be as good as a modern high dollar tig torch, but it will work good enough for most backyard hobbyist and we are talking minimal investment here

Here is even a video demo showing in full detail how to do it with action shots.

Homemade Tig Welder - Tig Welding Old School with Scratch Start - YouTube
 
/ Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene??? #40  
Appreciate the info,rankrank1,I didnt know you could set one up so easy. I dont use the mig welder hardly at all ether. Most of farm equipment welding your better off using a stick. I have no trouble welding sheetmetal with one also. Thanks again LUTT
 

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