1920 w/ blowby on #1 cyl

[Soundguy]

got a friend that works for a small golf course.. he called me today to look at a 1920 they have. He knows I owned one .. etc.

it's 4wd, 4x12 tranny.. etc.

as I hear was running one minute then started a regular miss that also had a good chug-chug blow by so strong it would pop the dipstick out of the crank case.

by the time I got there he had the head off.. #1 was wet and oily and the wear pattern at the top of the cyl wall looke dirregualr compaired to the other 3. ( apparrently no liner.. just parent bore. ).. no scratches .. but piston was up so you couldn't see much.

piston looked good in the bore.. didn't look to be slapping..e tc... no holed pistons.

I told him he should have cracked the injector lines one at a time to ensure that it was #1.. or comp tested with injector out or something.. but he didn't think about it defore taking head off.

once he gets the driveshaft and front end out of the way the pan is coming off.. probably monday... I'm wondering if we will see rings and ring lands in the pan? apparrently the blowby was extremly excessive and as the cyl was wet with diesel, apparrently was not fireing for sure.

any guessers to add to my guess?

oh yeah.. no water in the oil, oil in the water.. and suposedly no ether used. I did call him back later and tell him to sniff the tank to see if maybee someone added gasolene to it while it was running.. but won't know till he gets back to work on monday...

soundguy

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

With no hole in the piston, my next guess would be head gasket. Usually when rings break they break a little at a time. Not disintegrate all at once. Were you able to turn the engine over so the piston was at the bottom of the bore. If the rings or ring lands were broke you should see some deep scratches in the cyl. wall. Too bad your friend was overly ambitious. You may have been able to narrow it down more.
Bill

 

[JC-jetro]

Did you get to look at the head. Could the blow by caused by issues with the valves. I'm wondering if the cam shaft lobe, push rod for valves on in #1 had damage where both valves were closed causing the blow by. How about the cam shaft/timing gear, idler gear and crankshaft gear, any damage there? can't see gear jumping causing messed up valve timing. May be a bent push rod? I bet the rings are busted.

JC,

 

[Raspy]

It might be a head gasket blown into the crankcase instead of into the water passages. You'd see that easily on the head.

It might be a damaged piston from starting with ether. Broken rings and ring lands. Has he been using ether?

 

[Caliche]

"cyl was wet with diesel, apparrently was not fireing for sure."

If the rings were that bad would you have enough compression for ignition? and excessive blowby?
I would think head problem. Maybe valve guide? Cracked head? As mentioned, head gasket?
Sunday night full belly thoughts. Hope you get her fixed.

 

[Soundguy]

um.. the other 3 cyl's were fireing fine.. only #1 was wet.

Unfortunately when i got there he had already pulled the head. piston was only down about an inch.. head looked good.. no obvious signs of head gasket issue.. but you know how that goes.. hard to tell once you pull it apart.

there was no water / oil mix either.. no steam, no smoke. oil does not look diluted either. suposely just happened, and they shut it down and towed back to the shop.. again.. suposedly no ether used.. though i did tell my buddy to check the fuel tank for gas smell ( you never know ).

I didn't think to check the valves.. ie.. to see if both were could be closed.. will mention that tomorrow when i see him.

when i left him he was working on getting the drive train out of the way to get the pan off to yank the piston.. that should tell us a few things..

also.. front of engine was not all dismantled yet.. but will mention the valve timing, and also tell him to inspect the cam.. etc.

soundguy

"cyl was wet with diesel, apparrently was not fireing for sure."

If the rings were that bad would you have enough compression for ignition? and excessive blowby?
I would think head problem. Maybe valve guide? Cracked head? As mentioned, head gasket?
Sunday night full belly thoughts. Hope you get her fixed.

 

[RickB]

Time they get done with it, they will place a higher value on troubleshooting prior to tear-down.

 

[Soundguy]

Time they get done with it, they will place a higher value on troubleshooting prior to tear-down.

I should be seeing him tonight, if I get time after work.

He really should know bettger.. he used to be a diesel maechanic for larger engines.. like the cat 3208 , etc.. and larger truck engines.. then for the last 10 ys he's been a truck driver at a local co. early this year that job let go, and he decided to take it easy and got a maintenance job at the local golf course.. so now he works on alot of golf carts, and lawn care equipment, and now this cut diesel... probably the first diesel he's had to fix this decade

If I go over tonight I'll see what he's found with the cyl wall as I would surely think he has the front end and drive shaft off and piston out by now.

will post back what i see..

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

ok.. more info.. more questions..

stopped by and saw my buddy pete to find out what he found out.

ok.. pan off, piston out... new info

aluminum piston xfered some metal to the cyl wall.. rings contracted and look cooked. piston looks like it got REAL hot.

aluminum flaked off the cyl wall easilly and cleaned up perfectly with no scratching or gouges.. cyl wall looks 'normal' and shiney.. no hot spots or discoloration.. very very little ridge at the top.. similar to other cyls.

we smoked the head and old head gasket over.. no obvious sing of a blow or bypass.

here's another tidbit.

op of machine told us that it used about a gallon of coolant within the days prior to this happening.

-0- water in the pan.. no emulsion at all.

none of the cyls look steam cleaned either.. water ports all look good.. preior to teardown unit had normal amount of coolant in the system... though might have been some steam puffs from the breather.. though no sign of water in the oil area..

looks like that piston got HOT

I thought maybee loss of oiling to that cyl but no.. ALL rod and main bearing shells are virtually new looking.. all journals are perfect..

at this point.. new piston and rings are coming from the dealer plus a new head and pan gasket.. plus a few other cover gaskets.. 230 for the piston.. etc.. probably 500$ total for all parts and gooey stuff in total it looks like.. still no real answer though.

any ideas?

soundguy

 

[JC-jetro]

Soundguy

Very intriguing, hard to crack. If excessive heat was the cause, then why not other pistons? no water loss, no mix of oil and water/antifreeze but was the water pump actually pumping? When I was in college I ended up with strange overheating issue on my Buick Skylark without any water loss at all. I looked and looked could not figure it out, only by accident I inspected hoses by squeezing the lower radiator hose and it was solid as a rock. I drained the system down and noticed they had a spring in the lower hose to maintain the shape of the hose. the spring collapsed and the stuff in the system and the fact I never renewed the antifreeze caused a buildup a corral reef that effectively reduced the flow without any obvious leak.

I'm just thinking out loud here, this thing might keep us bamboozled yet

JC,

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

If the injector was not operating properly and over fueling the cly it would run hotter than the others, but with this type of injection system I am not sure if this can happen. The other senerio is that #1 was doing all the work and over heated. Does the temp guage work. Is the water pump pumping?
Bill

 

[Caliche]

If coolant was making it's way into the cylinder (crack , gasket) and washing the oil off the cylinder walls (coolant makes a bad lubricant) but the rings did their job and kept the coolant out of the crankcase, I would think the piston would get hot.
Tuesday night full belly thoughts.

 

[Soundguy]

yep.. could have.. and then.. I guess once it burned the piston and compression went bye bye thent hat cyl oiled up right before it got shut down.

I did not inspect the water pump or the gauge cluster.

soundguy

 

[Caliche]

Wow, it's late back there. You"re burning the midnight oil.
I would also check the valves real well, if you get the chance.

 

[IH3444]

Undetectable by human eye head gasket leak. Small amount of coolant burned in cylinder during power stroke cycle. Washed oil film off piston/cylinder at place of leakage. Aluminum piston had heat concentraction at leakage spot. Aluminum piston began to shed particle bits onto parent bore cast iron block cylinder. Hence blow by in that cylinder, pressurizing crankcase.

Second senario, cylinder head has slight crack, allowing cooling water to enter combustion cylinder. Crack closes when engine cools down, and only opens and leaks when engine is warmed up. Almost undetectable also. Have head closely inspected, pressure checked, and also manufluxed for a crack. Even if it passes testing, it still maybe cracked. Have seen this before.

Cylinder heads like to crack between valve seat rings. Look very closely at this area.

 

[Soundguy]

ok.

valves and head 'looked good' you know how that goes.

I like #1 possibility.. very plausable. we did manage to squeeze out of the op that over the last few days it slowly used 1g of coolant ( though none made it into the oil).. so it must have gone into a combustion chamber.. if it had a steady low steam bath it could have kept that cyl washed and allowed it to wear..

And I'd go with not being able to see a small leak on the head gasket.. especially one small enough to drop 1g over a few days of work.

will keep you guys posted.

soundguy

 

[Egon]

Can of dye penetrate!

 

[JC-jetro]

ok.

valves and head 'looked good' you know how that goes.

I like #1 possibility.. very plausable. we did manage to squeeze out of the op that over the last few days it slowly used 1g of coolant ( though none made it into the oil).. so it must have gone into a combustion chamber.. if it had a steady low steam bath it could have kept that cyl washed and allowed it to wear..

And I'd go with not being able to see a small leak on the head gasket.. especially one small enough to drop 1g over a few days of work.

will keep you guys posted.

soundguy

I Like it. I go thru the same thing with our maintenance folks when we have equipment failure. They don't like to fess up, kind of need to interrogate them individually and start building a case backward to find the root cause.
It is amazing that it did not mix with oil. It should have been small amount of antifreeze that was continuously burning leading to the problem.

have you asked him if he ever saw white smoke coming out of the tail pipe, probably he takes the fifth on that

 

[barbqranch]

I have no problem smelling antifreeze when a water pump is leaking. I was wondering, if it is being burned in the cylinder, does it have a distinctive odor?

 

[Soundguy]

Yep.. I did specifically ask about steam or white smoke from the stack or breather. was told 'none' except right when it went to missing.. then it puffed a lil bit white from the breather.. which then it was immediatly shut down.. IE.. within 'seconds' of the constant miss.

I guess if the compression on that cyl was staying up and coolant was making it into that cyl, then it was getting burned and not allowed to mix. at whatever point that piston and ring set gave up the ghost and allowd the compression loss and missing, then the coolant would puff thru the breather, and diesel would set on the piston.. since it was shut down asap.. I can see why the piston and cyl was wet with diesel, and no coolant got to the oil.. ie.. it was all burned while compression seal was good, and only had seconds to interact once seal failed.. heck.. at that point steam could have escaped thru an intake or exhaust valve if open, vs condensing in the cyl and getting to the oil.

soundign very plausible.. will keep on it to see if any more details come out.

soundguy

I Like it. I go thru the same thing with our maintenance folks when we have equipment failure. They don't like to fess up, kind of need to interrogate them individually and start building a case backward to find the root cause.
It is amazing that it did not mix with oil. It should have been small amount of antifreeze that was continuously burning leading to the problem.

have you asked him if he ever saw white smoke coming out of the tail pipe, probably he takes the fifth on that