BobRip
Elite Member
Amen to that. Chilton's and Haynes only tell you what you already know. I figure if I can't afford the OEM service manual, then I can't afford the vehicle. The Tundra was $500, that hurt.
Car designer should ahave to Intern in real shops, yearly
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Amen to that. Chilton's and Haynes only tell you what you already know. I figure if I can't afford the OEM service manual, then I can't afford the vehicle. The Tundra was $500, that hurt.
I got if finally. Had to use a pry bar against a wrench end from above cause I could not get pressure on it.
Yes Haynes/Chilton are not too great. I like factory manuals. But... I did not think I would need one to change the alternator belt...
As for design, that is right; it is a whole slew of people who design all the pieces that go together. But if they had to work on them, it would be different...
I know one thing, compared to the easier to work on 50's/60's/early 70's cars, they really do put a lot more in less space these days.
Yes Haynes/Chilton are not too great. I like factory manuals. But... I did not think I would need one to change the alternator belt...
As for design, that is right; it is a whole slew of people who design all the pieces that go together. But if they had to work on them, it would be different...
I know one thing, compared to the easier to work on 50's/60's/early 70's cars, they really do put a lot more in less space these days.
RoyJackson
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The management is there to keep the stockholders happy...not the mechanics who work on cars.
And the designs are for manufacture, not maintenance.
Quite a few of the FWD cars are most easily maintained by dropping the engine/transaxle out. Also, some maintenance is easier done under the car.
Obviously, not fun for the DIY guys...
But, on the other hand, we're not doing engine overhauls at 60K-100K miles (pretty common in the 50's and early 60's cars). Fuel economy is much better and overall maintenance is less frequent. "Luxury" options are commonplace.
And, as a percentage of income, car prices aren't any higher then they were 50-60 years ago.
But you want easier oil changes and such, buy a Jeep CJ or a pickup (without AC, Power Steering, Power Brakes).
And the designs are for manufacture, not maintenance.
Quite a few of the FWD cars are most easily maintained by dropping the engine/transaxle out. Also, some maintenance is easier done under the car.
Obviously, not fun for the DIY guys...
But, on the other hand, we're not doing engine overhauls at 60K-100K miles (pretty common in the 50's and early 60's cars). Fuel economy is much better and overall maintenance is less frequent. "Luxury" options are commonplace.
And, as a percentage of income, car prices aren't any higher then they were 50-60 years ago.
But you want easier oil changes and such, buy a Jeep CJ or a pickup (without AC, Power Steering, Power Brakes).
DanielVT
Member
Yup. Remember when a cupholder - a single cupholder - was a "feature"?
Deal with nearly impossible to repair designs, parts issues, and insurance companies, multiple times, on a daily basis. :confused2:
Then, you will have scratched the surface, of knowing what the auto body repair business is like.
Then, you will have scratched the surface, of knowing what the auto body repair business is like.
wroughtn_harv
Super Member
I've always said car engineers evidently all have mother in laws that are automobile mechanics, or so it appears.
mjarrels
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If you think cars are bad... Military jets are much worse. Once had a socket dropped in a A-6E cockpit... One brave pilot volunteered to fly postive/negative "G's" to try to dislodge it. Ended up spending about three months and $100,000's of thousands of dollars to have a depot level team tear the cockpit apart and rebuild.
mark
mark
dgl24087
Veteran Member
The PT Cruiser was a challenge from the beginning. Shortly after the car was intro'd, an auto mag (can't recall which one, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, maybe Automobile) ran a feature on Chrysler's struggles to meet production goals. After much infighting between plant management, the car design team and the assembly line design team (all passing the buck as to who was at fault), upper management sent everyone involved to the plant to solve the issue. It seems that the engine compartment was so tight to fit the engine assembly in the alloted time that the line workers had to stop the line, fit the engine, then restart the line. After all involved studied the issue, they reached the conclusion that the workers would have to stop the line, fit the engine, then restart the line, lol. The plant was only able to reach 1/3 of it's production goal if I recall correctly.
eepete
Platinum Member
We have met the enemy and he is us 
.
Committee design is a big problem, engineers that never got out on the production floor or repair shops is a big problem, but I vote for two much bigger problems:
1) There used to be a balance between the Technical, Marketing, and Business parts of a company. Now it's a pecking order, with the MBA on top, then the marketing, and the technical at the bottom.
2) Like governmental agencies, products are really a reflection of the average user. How many people who buy a car get under it to see how hard it is to get at the filter? As the general population's ability to "do stuff" goes down, the need to have other do work on cars, houses, etc. goes up. Members of this forum are a shinning exception :thumbsup:.
Now put these two problems together, and you'll find that a company can 't make a relatively easy to work on product. That would be driven by the technical side, not marketing or business. And if the company did make an easy to work on product, it would be bigger and bulkier and more costly (up front, not in the long run) and so sales volumes and profits would be down. This causes the MBA and marketing people to get involved and "fix" the problem, and reenforces the idea that you should never let the technical people get involved in product design. Note this is also why the myth of outsourcing continues on.
We also contribute to this problem by wanting maximum returns on investments for our retirements. And we want them each quarter. And big dividends too.
We are all master of a few domains, but generally speaking we are witless consumers in most. You should see how bad I am if I'm involved with purchasing clothing or interior decorating items :laughing:.
Pete
.Committee design is a big problem, engineers that never got out on the production floor or repair shops is a big problem, but I vote for two much bigger problems:
1) There used to be a balance between the Technical, Marketing, and Business parts of a company. Now it's a pecking order, with the MBA on top, then the marketing, and the technical at the bottom.
2) Like governmental agencies, products are really a reflection of the average user. How many people who buy a car get under it to see how hard it is to get at the filter? As the general population's ability to "do stuff" goes down, the need to have other do work on cars, houses, etc. goes up. Members of this forum are a shinning exception :thumbsup:.
Now put these two problems together, and you'll find that a company can 't make a relatively easy to work on product. That would be driven by the technical side, not marketing or business. And if the company did make an easy to work on product, it would be bigger and bulkier and more costly (up front, not in the long run) and so sales volumes and profits would be down. This causes the MBA and marketing people to get involved and "fix" the problem, and reenforces the idea that you should never let the technical people get involved in product design. Note this is also why the myth of outsourcing continues on.
We also contribute to this problem by wanting maximum returns on investments for our retirements. And we want them each quarter. And big dividends too.
We are all master of a few domains, but generally speaking we are witless consumers in most. You should see how bad I am if I'm involved with purchasing clothing or interior decorating items :laughing:.
Pete
