Right to Privacy

[Chuck52]

Moss,

I guess your point is that most of us really wouldn't like to live in a country where the poor were just left to starve. I know I wouldn't, and I don't. We all benefit from government programs that help the less fortunate, if only in having fewer bodies to step over on our way to the restaurant.

Chuck

 

[brin]

Moss,

I guess your point is that most of us really wouldn't like to live in a country where the poor were just left to starve. I know I wouldn't, and I don't. We all benefit from government programs that help the less fortunate, if only in having fewer bodies to step over on our way to the restaurant.

Chuck

No one ever starved in this country before all the government handouts. Private charities, churches and individuals stepped in and would again if given the chance. There could also so be work for food programs...there are many nation building solutions best left to individuals and the private market.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

On this particular item, I think you need to get out there (with some backup) and go through some of the areas like the south side of Chicago, East St. Louis, Detroit, heck, here in South Bend, IN even where there is a 40% vacant housing rate. Yes. 40% non-occupied houses. There are no jobs to be had. Even if some young inner city kid was blessed with parents that cared and provided for him, there is no place for him to make a living. And if you have no money, you can't even afford to move to a place where there IS employment. It is bad.

Does my 6 years working in Cabrini-Green qualify me as having been "out there"?
You are absolutely correct about the appalling conditions.
Again, pull aside the curtain, which policies led to the conditions of which you speak?
Were they the ones that encouraged people to work? or was it the easy access to welfare programs that led to "no jobs" "no hope".
When you have a strong church presence in these areas, are the gang problems as bad?
Even thought I might strongly disagree with their politics, I do admire the Black Muslims in the inner city for encouraging people to become self-sufficient and not depend on a government hand out.
Because the one thing that a hand-out robs a person of is pride, and if you lose that, you don't have a heck of a lot left IMHO.

 

[2manyrocks]

Referring back to my post #74, some people who legitimately need help don't receive it, but the ones who know how to game the system get the benefits.

A friend of mine runs the local charitable help center, and she spends a lot of time screening out the ones who go from center to center picking up cash and services. There's only so much to go around, and she has to work to be sure what is available goes to those who need it most. But she definitely has to screen out the thieves.

One guy who had been given money by a local pastor stole a wallet during choir practice at Christmas at the next church down the street, and then he made up a story that the pastor at the Methodist church had given him the money he had stolen.

Cost is a reality. Tennessee ditched the Tenncare system a few years ago because the program had grown to the point that it couldn't afford it. People moved here from everywhere to get on Tenncare. After financial reality set in, the system had to be changed. State governments can't print their own money, and so they have to come to terms with reality a lot faster.

All this discussion reminds me of the time I asked my Daddy what it was like when he grew up. He said that people used to be able to have more in those days because the government didn't take so much in taxes at all levels for all the different things that are taxed. If you add up all the levels of taxation, it's a lot higher than people realize.

And as I recall, membership in most mainline denominations has fallen to levels below that in the 1930's, and it's estimated that church giving is somewhere around 3% not 10%.

 

[dave1949]

Does my 6 years working in Cabrini-Green qualify me as having been "out there"?
You are absolutely correct about the appalling conditions.
Again, pull aside the curtain, which policies led to the conditions of which you speak?
Were they the ones that encouraged people to work? or was it the easy access to welfare programs that led to "no jobs" "no hope".
When you have a strong church presence in these areas, are the gang problems as bad?
Even thought I might strongly disagree with their politics, I do admire the Black Muslims in the inner city for encouraging people to become self-sufficient and not depend on a government hand out.
Because the one thing that a hand-out robs a person of is pride, and if you lose that, you don't have a heck of a lot left IMHO.

First, I am not pulling the race card on anyone here. Just a sociological observation.

The cities/areas being discussed are primarily minority dominated. From my viewpoint at least, there is a lot more going on to cause chronic poverty than just welfare handouts. It is impossible to separate the current problems from the extreme discrimination of the past and the lingering discrimination of the present. Just cannot be done. A lot of progress has been made, but it takes time that is measured in generations.

Judging the merits or lack of merits for welfare-like programs while ignoring the root causes has no validity. It is a largely useless exercise.

Poor people of any ethnicity are discriminated against, just look at how popular new Section 8 housing is in an existing neighborhood. Add racial history issues to that, and we have a problem that is not simple. Moss pointed out several of those problem attributes.

Because it is not a simple problem, applying the usual logic has not provided any quick solutions.
Dave.

 

[brin]

Dave- Just a few questions...

How many years will it take for discrimination to stop being an excuse and by that I mean, if I felt I was being discrimnated against uniformly througout the contry I would leave. I would realize I could not force folks to accept me but on the other hand if I saw others of my race , religion or circumstance fitting in and being productive I would try to put aside my own pejudices and hate and fit in.

I know this for sure ..handouts will only require more handouts...work must be rewarded and when those who don't work get the same reward as folks who do work the whole thing collapses ...since there is no longer any incentive to work or achieve.sociological observation only.

Look what happened as a result of LBJ's Great Society...! Just the way I see it.

 

[dave1949]

Dave- Just a few questions...

How many years will it take for discrimination to stop being an excuse and by that I mean, if I felt I was being discrimnated against uniformly througout the contry I would leave. I would realize I could not force folks to accept me but on the other hand if I saw others of my race , religion or circumstance fitting in and being productive I would try to put aside my own pejudices and hate and fit in.

I know this for sure ..handouts will only require more handouts...work must be rewarded and when those who don't work get the same reward as folks who do work the whole thing collapses ...since there is no longer any incentive to work or achieve.sociological observation only.

Look what happened as a result of LBJ's Great Society...! Just the way I see it.

I don't know how many years Bob. I can only say it isn't just an excuse. When Obama ran for President, I didn't have to go far amongst my family and friends to find those who would never consider voting for an African American, regardless of his politics. Just wasn't going to happen. If you are caucasian, I would guess you know folks who feel the same way without thinking too hard on it. I personally believe that some percentage of the Tea Party demonstrators didn't become Constitutional 'experts' until we had an African American President either. They try to hide behind 'birther' and middle name of Hussein nonsense. I see it as something else.

Using Obama as an example, he was raised by a caucasian mother and grandparents. He did not claw his way out of the projects, in other words, he shares a lot of culture with caucasians.

It is their country too. Shortly before the Revolution, 20% of the population was African American. Mostly slaves or servants for life. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights did nothing to change their slave status. The US Constitution and the State's Constitutions - used between the Declaration Of Independence and the ratification of the US Constitution - for the most part legally protected slavery. Some signers of the US Constitution were slave owners, including the man who wrote it.

When African Americans were able to join the middle class in the northern states, as a result of non-discriminatory employment laws, they were shunned by caucasian society. That is the basis for white flight which began in the 1960's leaving broken communities behind.

Following the civil war through the first half of the 20th century, many blacks in the south were robbed of the farms and property which they legally owned. The judges, lawyers, sheriffs and juries were all white people and saw blacks as less than equal. That might still be the case without LBJ's civil rights push of the mid-sixties. Over and over again the life forced on blacks in this country has been very discriminatory.

From the earliest days of the American Colonies until the mid-1960's, African Americans were either slaves or powerless to participate in the American culture as we think of it. Naturally, during this time period, they developed their own culture - wouldn't you or I? They didn't reject white culture, they told very clearly to keep out of it. It would be unreasonable to expect two cultures with a goodly amount of ill feeling between them to heal in one or two generations.

To this day, the black and white cultures of our country have never truly joined. Or the white and hispanic. Hopefully they get a little closer as time goes on. Did you know that this year, 2010, may be the first year that non-white births exceed white births in the US?

Look at two areas of American life - the military and professional sports. There are many, many examples of African Americans who have excelled in those two areas. They also happen to be the two most color blind institutions we have in our country. That should tell us something Bob.

I do agree that LBJ's Great Society housing projects were dismal failures. I will still take his efforts as a good faith attempt to solve a very old and entrenched problem. I don't know where else in the world we may look to find solutions that work. Racial harmony is difficult to achieve given our history.
Dave.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I don't know how many years Bob. I can only say it isn't just an excuse. When Obama ran for President, I didn't have to go far amongst my family and friends to find those who would never consider voting for an African American, regardless of his politics. Just wasn't going to happen. If you are caucasian, I would guess you know folks who feel the same way without thinking too hard on it. I personally believe that some percentage of the Tea Party demonstrators didn't become Constitutional 'experts' until we had an African American President either. They try to hide behind 'birther' and middle name of Hussein nonsense. I see it as something else.

Using Obama as an example, he was raised by a caucasian mother and grandparents. He did not claw his way out of the projects, in other words, he shares a lot of culture with caucasians.

It is their country too. Shortly before the Revolution, 20% of the population was African American. Mostly slaves or servants for life. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights did nothing to change their slave status. The US Constitution and the State's Constitutions - used between the Declaration Of Independence and the ratification of the US Constitution - for the most part legally protected slavery. Some signers of the US Constitution were slave owners, including the man who wrote it.

When African Americans were able to join the middle class in the northern states, as a result of non-discriminatory employment laws, they were shunned by caucasian society. That is the basis for white flight which began in the 1960's leaving broken communities behind.

Following the civil war through the first half of the 20th century, many blacks in the south were robbed of the farms and property which they legally owned. The judges, lawyers, sheriffs and juries were all white people and saw blacks as less than equal. That might still be the case without LBJ's civil rights push of the mid-sixties. Over and over again the life forced on blacks in this country has been very discriminatory.

From the earliest days of the American Colonies until the mid-1960's, African Americans were either slaves or powerless to participate in the American culture as we think of it. Naturally, during this time period, they developed their own culture - wouldn't you or I? They didn't reject white culture, they told very clearly to keep out of it. It would be unreasonable to expect two cultures with a goodly amount of ill feeling between them to heal in one or two generations.

To this day, the black and white cultures of our country have never truly joined. Or the white and hispanic. Hopefully they get a little closer as time goes on. Did you know that this year, 2010, may be the first year that non-white births exceed white births in the US?

Look at two areas of American life - the military and professional sports. There are many, many examples of African Americans who have excelled in those two areas. They also happen to be the two most color blind institutions we have in our country. That should tell us something Bob.

I do agree that LBJ's Great Society housing projects were dismal failures. I will still take his efforts as a good faith attempt to solve a very old and entrenched problem. I don't know where else in the world we may look to find solutions that work. Racial harmony is difficult to achieve given our history.
Dave.

Whoaaaaaa-------
I go to town,and now were discussing RACE.
Let me get a post in here BEFORE the inevitable
Dave; Yea I guess we can discuss the original sin of slavery of which America is of course guity. But can we at least acknowledge that we have a President who has African roots. Is that not progress?
Or our we to be whipped forever with what at the time WAS an almost universally accepted practice.
Anytime someone says "Well not to play the race card-----BUT" Well you know its going to be a big but
To try and return to MY original posting vis-a-vis privacy.
I am reading Hayek's book "The Road to Serfdom".
It was published appx 60 yrs ago. It is almost as if you could tear a page from any of todays newspapers and compare them as identical. Very Scary stuff!
One of his points is that in most societies, people have to give up their rights to either a "collective" or centrally planned governments in order to gain some amorphous "good" I highly recommend it, if you can find it. I ordered it from my library, 14 holds, and two copies
And to your point about Section 8 housing, I have some experience with it as a landlord, and can tell you that in a fairly short period of time, you probably won't recognize your neighborhood.
after rereading your post, must correct you on fact,
I read "Dreams from my Father" He was not raised by his mother, She abandoned him to resume her college career.
He was raised by his Grandparents.

 

[dave1949]

Whoaaaaaa-------
I go to town,and now were discussing RACE.
Let me get a post in here BEFORE the inevitable
Dave; Yea I guess we can discuss the original sin of slavery of which America is of course guity. But can we at least acknowledge that we have a President who has African roots. Is that not progress?
Or our we to be whipped forever with what at the time WAS an almost universally accepted practice.
Anytime someone says "Well not to play the race card-----BUT" Well you know its going to be a big but
To try and return to MY original posting vis-a-vis privacy.
I am reading Hayek's book "The Road to Serfdom".
It was published appx 60 yrs ago. It is almost as if you could tear a page from any of todays newspapers and compare them as identical. Very Scary stuff!
One of his points is that in most societies, people have to give up their rights to either a "collective" or centrally planned governments in order to gain some amorphous "good" I highly recommend it, if you can find it. I ordered it from my library, 14 holds, and two copies
And to your point about Section 8 housing, I have some experience with it as a landlord, and can tell you that in a fairly short period of time, you probably won't recognize your neighborhood.
after rereading your post, must correct you on fact,
I read "Dreams from my Father" He was not raised by his mother, She abandoned him to resume her college career.
He was raised by his Grandparents.

Yes, I did digress unfortunately. The question was asked, so I gave a viewpoint. I did say mother and grandparents, give me partial credit .

We have made progress, we have a ways to go. I find a lot of hope in the kids of today. They have grown up in a different society than we did.

The Section 8 housing thing is a repeat of housing projects, just done a smaller scale it seems. It is hardly ever done as one house in a stable neighborhood. It's always something silly like, Oh, there's an abandoned school building, lets convert it to Section 8 housing. The seeds of failure are planted before anyone moves in.

The book sounds interesting. I read the wikipedia article on it. I see there is also a cartoon version on youtube! Google the book title to find it.

Here is one comment from the article:
The libertarian economist Walter Block has observed critically that while the The Road to Serfdom makes a strong case against centrally-planned economies, it appears only lukewarm in its support of pure laissez-faire capitalism, with Hayek even going so far as to say that "probably nothing has done so much harm to the liberal cause as the wooden insistence of some liberals on certain rules of thumb, above all the principle of laissez-faire capitalism". In the book, Hayek writes that the government has a role to play in the economy through the monetary system (a view that he later withdrew[18]), work-hours regulation, social welfare, and institutions for the flow of proper information.[19]

The reviews and comments are all over the map. General Motors distributed it as a pamphlet to it's employees back in the commie scare days. As a kid I read a lot of Reader's Digests. They were hung up on two things, commies and mafioso. There was one around every corner as they told it.
Dave.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

If you get a chance ,read it. He does have some views about capitalism that you might find interesting.
One other thing about your previous post that I wanted to
critique was the point about blacks and the post war exodus to the North. I don't think that most blacks who did migrate north would describe themselves as"middle class". Working class perhaps, but not middle.
Some of my strongest childhood memories was being on some picket lines with my Dad.
At the time, a lot of blacks were employed as strike breakers and the real pejorative term used was "scab" albeit no one will deny the "n" word was used very liberally. When one is faced with losing your job to somebody, I guess its only human to use the most obvious feature of the person you are looking at.
I think that to characterize the "suburbanization" of America is somehow tied to racism is a rather broad stroke of the brush. I think that most people move to get better schools, more land, better housing, and that includes minorities.
BTW Did it ever dry out there?