Getting screwed on warranty!

[Jaybr]

A couple weeks ago while my son (20) was running the wood chipper on our CK35, the hydraulic pump sprung a leak. The tractor is just under 2 years old, and less than 200 hrs on it.

I called my dealer, they came and picked up the tractor, and over the past 2.5 weeks have replaced several different o-rings in the pump, and each time it blows another.

This morning I get a call from them telling me that they just realized that the rear remotes where engaged, and that was causing the problem. They also stated that since every time they started it up to test it the pump got extremely hot, that Kioti says they need to replace the pump as damage has been done.

Here is the kicker, the dealer says that Kioti will not cover this under warranty because the remotes where engaged which burned up the pump.

I know when I checked out the problem, the remote lever was in the neutral position, I haven't had the backhoe on the tractor since last summer, and I know the lever has been in neutral since.

The dealer says that Kioti sent out a bulletin stating that if there where pump problems and the tractor had rear remotes, they would not cover under warranty because it could have been caused by operator error with remote engagement.

I never got that bulletin, and my warranty says bumper to bumper for 2 years, powertrain (pump should be covered here) for 4 years.

It seems to me that if there is no releif valve in the system to address this it is a very poor design.

It also seems very fishy to me that I know the remotes where in neutral, and now they are engaged. Also fishy is that my dealer dropped Kioti last year, but still does warranty work, and maybe Kioti doesn't want to support them and their just looking for a way to get me to foot the bill.

I will fight this and fully expect Kioti to fix this under warranty.

 

[VictorW]

Granted leaving a remote on for extended periods and dead heading the line pressure will hurt the pump even with the relief valve working. What I don't understand is, if the wording is correct, if you have remotes and the pump fails, don't repair under warranty because it "could " have failed due to the remotes left on. I guess they should put out a disclaimer when you get remotes that if the pump fails your out of luck for warranty on the pump.

That doesn't sound right to me unless they have a concrete way of proving you did leave the remote on. I'd talk with another dealer. Something doesn't sound right and I think your on the right track about something fishy.

 

[CurlyDave]

Ask them "Who is your agent authorized to receive service?".

Explain that in all states corporations are required to designate with the state attorney general an agent authorized to receive legal service. This is where you send the notice you are suing.

My experience has been that just asking this question will frequently get them to accept responsibility. If they don't fill out the court paperwork and take them to small claims court.

The warranty is a legal contract. They can't unilaterally change it with a service bulletin. No judge will allow that.

Get the agent for both the dealership and Kioti. Let the judge sort out who pays.

 

[tommu56]

After you get it fixed I would put loop back ends on them so it wouldn't dead end if left on.

tom

 

[Jaybr]

I've talked to Kioti now, their stance is that leaving the rear remotes engaged for extended period of time at high rpms will burn up the o-rings in the pump and cause internal damage to the pump.

Since the original problem was leaking pump, they assume that I left the rear remotes engaged and this problem is caused by operator error and cannot be covered under warranty.

The warranty states it does not cover:
physical abuse or misuse of the product or operation of the product in a manner contrary to the provisions of its owners manual.

I just read through my owners manual for both the tractor and the backhoe, and nowhere does it even mention the lever used to control the rear remotes, or any damage that may incure for misuse of that lever.

 

[Gittyup]

Does anyone know, are the big 3 brands designed the same way? The loopback hose is one solution. Are there others that can be designed in? Like may a valve that returns to neutral when dead head is sensed? Do they make a relief valve that can be put across the remotes?

I was told to watch for this and not to do it when my tractor was delivered. But, I can see how it would b easy to forget, or to accidentally engage it. It does make a pretty distinct whine when it dead heads. I'm always listening for unusual noises.

 

[RollingsFarms]

my John Deere automatically goes back to neutral if it isn't hooked up. you can push it forward or backward all day but the moment you let go, it goes right back to neutral. i was shocked when he said he must have accidently left it engaged because mine doesn't do that. ofcourse, i can only speak about John Deere tractors that i've been around. they are all the same way.

 

[VictorW]

I've talked to Kioti now, their stance is that leaving the rear remotes engaged for extended period of time at high rpms will burn up the o-rings in the pump and cause internal damage to the pump.

Since the original problem was leaking pump, they assume that I left the rear remotes engaged and this problem is caused by operator error and cannot be covered under warranty.

The warranty states it does not cover:
physical abuse or misuse of the product or operation of the product in a manner contrary to the provisions of its owners manual.


I think you can get this repaired if you talk to the right people if indeed you did nothing wrong. As you say, they assumed you left the remote engaged which would be misuse and abuse. If they assume for all of us who have remotes, then a failing pump would never get repaired or replaced under warranty. If you left the remotes engaged, well that's a live and learn lesson. If you didn't, then it should be covered. If the o-rings can only burn up by dead ending the remotes, then live and learn.

 

[VictorW]

One other possible cause to hurt the pump if you didn't leave the remotes on. Is the chipper hydraulics set up as an open center or closed center system? I'm not familiar with hydraulic chippers. If it's a closed center system and you have it connected, then that is just the same as leaving a remote engaged.

 

[JoelD]

This sort of thing is frustrating.

If this is a problem common enough for a bulletin and you called them about the problem and they did not at that time ask you "we've been allerted to a cause of pump failures and leaks, did you happen the leave your lever out of neutral?", which sounds like they did not.

And if they tried to fix more than once, without first noticing lever was not in neutral, again, common enough for an allert, and ran the tractor and did not notice that the pump was deadheading, which you just can't miss, particularly if you are a mechanic, and blew out more seals, then I'd say they are full of crap.

Tell them to either prove it was broke because of the lever, if so, prove where it states you should leave in neutral when hoe is not attached. In the meantime, you are of the opinion that the pump broke and needs to be replaced.

File a BBB complaint, file a formal complaint with Kioti with all your concerns and facts clearly stated and then I would expect next step would be small claims court or something of the sort, certain there are lawyers on the site who can advise.

I can't stand when people fight over warranty claims, particularly when there is any question.

Document everything.

Joel

 

[RickB]

Does anyone know, are the big 3 brands designed the same way? The loopback hose is one solution. Are there others that can be designed in? Like may a valve that returns to neutral when dead head is sensed? Do they make a relief valve that can be put across the remotes?

I was told to watch for this and not to do it when my tractor was delivered. But, I can see how it would b easy to forget, or to accidentally engage it. It does make a pretty distinct whine when it dead heads. I'm always listening for unusual noises.

Open center hydraulic systems can and do damage pumps when pump flow is forced over relief at system pressure for extended periods. It makes no difference what color paint is on the tractor, or what the decals say. That is why many remote valves have no detents except for float. And also why pressure adjustable detents should only be set at or above relief pressure in special circumstances, and set "normally" when those circumstances end.
I have no idea what happened in this case and will not speculate. If there were no relief valve in the system at all, the damage would have been immediate and probably more catastrophic. Something along the lines of a split pump housing or blown connection.

 

[IslandTractor]

I've purchased two Kioti's. My first dealer did not mention this issue of deadheading the remotes at all. Luckily I never did it.

My second dealer read me the riot act and handed me a form that stated the warning and Kioti's warranty policy on fried pumps due to dead heading in large bold type. It made an impression. (For those of you who know Rick, his usual jovial self was turned off when he made this point).

A loop is probably the safest thing to do as then it doesn't matter if you forget or accidentally engage the remote without an implement attached.

I feel sympathy for the OP but it seems to me it is a dealer responsibility rather than Kioti's. This has nothing to do with Kioti design or manufacturing it is related to general principles of hydraulic equipment use. Most of us don't know squat about hydraulics when we buy the equipment so it seems the duty of a dealer to assess their customer's knowledge level and provide the appropriate orientation/warning.

 

[Jaybr]

I'm wondering if the relieve valve failed or something similar. According to what both my son and the dealer are telling me, the tractor wasn't run with the remotes engaged more than a minute or two. I know I never run it with the remotes engaged, and I check everything often. My son also said he never heard any strange noise before it went, he said he got on the tractor to move it and the lift arms wouldn't go up and then he noticed fluid dripping out the right side.

The chipper runs off the PTO, not hydrualic connection.

 

[IslandTractor]

Open center hydraulic systems can and do damage pumps when pump flow is forced over relief at system pressure for extended periods. It makes no difference what color paint is on the tractor, or what the decals say. That is why many remote valves have no detents except for float. And also why pressure adjustable detents should only be set at or above relief pressure in special circumstances, and set "normally" when those circumstances end.
I have no idea what happened in this case and will not speculate. If there were no relief valve in the system at all, the damage would have been immediate and probably more catastrophic. Something along the lines of a split pump housing or blown connection.

If I recall correctly the Kioti system does have a relief valve so there is no damage immediately when deadheaded but the relief valve can only transfer a portion of the pumped fluid so the rest gradually heats up and the heat damages the O rings etc. Apparently it takes about 10-15 minutes to get hot enough when deadheaded to start damaging the rings.

 

[Renze]

At full pressure, gear pumps will leak back about 10% of the oil back to the suction port. All the energy will be turned into heat at the relief valve.
However it amazes me that a pump could fry because of blowing over the relief valve ? The most heat is generated in the relief valve not the pump.
Off course these Kiotis have about the same hydraulic flow as our 5245 (bout 32 liter per minute) and a way smaller tank. (the 5245 holds about 45 liter in its rear end)
But as 32 liter at 175 bar is about 9 Kilowatt, you must have noticed this power consumption on a 25 Kw tractor....

 

[VictorW]

I'm wondering if the relieve valve failed or something similar. According to what both my son and the dealer are telling me, the tractor wasn't run with the remotes engaged more than a minute or two. I know I never run it with the remotes engaged, and I check everything often. My son also said he never heard any strange noise before it went, he said he got on the tractor to move it and the lift arms wouldn't go up and then he noticed fluid dripping out the right side.

The chipper runs off the PTO, not hydrualic connection.

Sorry, I was thinking you were using the tractor hydraulics to run the chipper. I've only seen big chippers running off pto shafts on much bigger tractors.
As Renze advised, you would notice a good power and rpm loss in the tractor. I feel this with my CK30hst if I'm using the remotes and don't release the lever instantly after the attached cylinder hits the end of the stroke.
It's nice to know that there are some dealers who will advise about deadheading the remotes for those that aren't familiar with tractors and hydraulics. I guess the question I have is if a pump fails, did it occur because of deadheading the remotes or it just failed due to a defect? And if you have remotes, is the warranty void on the pump?

 

[kenstrac]

A couple weeks ago while my son (20) was running the wood chipper on our CK35, the hydraulic pump sprung a leak. The tractor is just under 2 years old, and less than 200 hrs on it.

I called my dealer, they came and picked up the tractor, and over the past 2.5 weeks have replaced several different o-rings in the pump, and each time it blows another.

This morning I get a call from them telling me that they just realized that the rear remotes where engaged, and that was causing the problem. They also stated that since every time they started it up to test it the pump got extremely hot, that Kioti says they need to replace the pump as damage has been done.


It took the dealer 2.5 weeks and several O rings I think the dealer blew the pump.How come he did not notice the lever was engaged ,proper troubleshooting by the dealer in the first place would not gotten you where you are now

 

[Jaybr]

It took the dealer 2.5 weeks and several O rings I think the dealer blew the pump.How come he did not notice the lever was engaged ,proper troubleshooting by the dealer in the first place would not gotten you where you are now

I thought the same thing.

One of the first things Kioti rep asked the dealer was did the tractor have rear remotes, dealer responded NO. Both dealer and Kioti told me this.

Dealer replaced the first 0 ring, put it back together and another started leaking. They said immediatly, claimed they only ran it a few seconds and it leaked, also claimed the pump got too hot to touch.

Delear replaced second O ring and a third started leaking. Again, they claim they only ran it a few second, but also that the pump got too hot to touch.

After the third 0-ring the noticed it had rear remotes and the lever was engaged.

Kioti claims that since I brought it in for a leaking pump, that the damage was done before it got to dealer.

But according to my son, he only accidentaly engaged the lever then immediatly put it back to neutral. He didn't know what the lever was for, but he would certainly have noticed power loss in the tractor or the whine it makes in that situation.

So what doesn't add up to me is if the dealer only ran the tractor a few seconds, how did the oil in the pump get so hot they couldn't touch it in just a few seconds? I think they had to run the tractor for at least a few minutes for the oil to get that hot, and I suspect each time they ran it for the 15-20 minutes that Kioti claims it would take to blow an O-ring. If this is the case, the original problem could have been a simple defective O ring, and the dealer destroyed the pump.

 

[steve0413]

Wow, what a bummer. I have a new DK45SE with BH and wasn't told, nor have I read anything about this problem. Even with the warnings, this IS a defect in design and I can't believe you wouldn't get a court to rule in your favor. This would be equalivent to buying a new car and running the A/C during winter and causing your engine to blow or something similar.

I've found mine engaged when I don't remember engaging it, possibly from hitting it while getting in or out of the cab. Fortunately, the backhoe has been attached when it's happened.

I'd recommend being persistant and demand that Kioti fix this. This is a recall type problem.

Question. Since this is my first tractor with a backhoe. Can the remote with detent be used to operate any implement that uses a hydraulic cylinder? If so, am I to assume that the control will not go to neutral automatically when the cylinder is fully extended or contracted? I've operated several old A and B model John Deere's 40 years ago and even then the detent would automatically return to neutral.

 

[rcrcomputing]

While this thread is playing out, let me get my ducks in a row...

On my rear remote, which I think is power beyond. I have a knob I have to reach way behind the when to turn. (Dealer said something about putting on a better knob when he delivered it years ago). It is rather inconvenient to reach though.

Every time I install the backhoe, I turn the knob all the way the other direction.
So, from what I'm reading, I if failed to do that, I'd hear a whining and have 15 seconds to fix it or my pump would blow up?

Just getting the facts straight so it doesn't happen to me someday..