Another injector failure

Gittyup · May 9, 2009

Well, seems I've joined the ranks of those whose injector pump has failed. Was moving some mulch today, running at about 2000 rpms when suddenly the rpms dropped to 1000. I pressed on the throttle pedal. Nothing happened. I tried the hand throttle. No change. Then it just died. Started it back up right away and in short order it did it again. I saw some dirt in the fuel filter bowl so thought maybe that was it. So, I put in a new filter and cleaned the bowl out thoroughly. Restarted the tractor. Ran for about 5 minutes and started doing it again. Restarted once again and this time the engine Revved to 4000 rpms! I quickly shut off the key switch. Tractor kept on running! So, then I quickly stalled the tractor in high gear. Needless to say, I'm not a happy camper. I'm at 3 years and 1 month, 324 hours.

BJN644 · May 10, 2009

This is starting to sound like a disturbing trend, I'm glad you got it shut down. What would happen if you had an HST tractor? I remember a runaway diesel on a boat over 20 years ago when I was in the Coast Guard, it's something you'll never forget.

greenmule · May 10, 2009

Well,that sounds like it[govenor related??],but not being a mechanic,wouldn't know for sure.

If so,wonder how many this is now? heard of 1 maybe 2 on here?

Wonder if kioti ever addressed this in later models?

Do you use a desil fuel additive? I use power service,[don't know if this would help or hurt],just thinking of the new low sulpher desil and this.

Is this the first time you've changed fuel filter?

One good thing though,it should be a fast repair[take old pump off put new one on],heard on here pump was costly,what was it 1,500 or something? [could do a search but to lazy]. 2 years warrenty believe on that part,

Gittyup · May 10, 2009

I use power service. The fuel filter maintenance schedule is clean annually or as as needed, replace at 300 hours. That is pretty much what I've done. I'm pretty picky about keeping up with the maintenance. I Keep clean fluids in her and keep her well greased, and replace anything that breaks. I know how to care for equipment and most things I own last for many many years.

It's almost definitely the injector. I think there have been many more failures than we are aware of.

Yeah, it sure would be nice if it had a fuel shutoff knob, like the Euro models do. I guess with HST, you'd have to just quickly jump off, raise the hood, and cut off the fuel.

mattman · May 10, 2009

Gittyup what model do you have?

Coyote machine · May 10, 2009

Gittyup,
To clarify for those who might confuse the injectors, which you refer to in your post's title, as well as the injector pump, which you later mention as the likely faulty item on your tractor- the injector pump is what you are saying is the actual defective item you are currently dealing with, correct? Not just a clogged injector(s).
The injection pump controls delivery to each injector, of which there is one injector per cylinder.
Just out of curiosity, have you checked the linkage arms at the injection pump to make sure there is nothing holding the pump wide open?
I would not try to start your tractor again until you have determined the cause of the problem- you definitely do not want it cranking red line with no way to shut off except for stalling it.
Sorry to hear you are having this problem- sounds like a faulty pump that just gave up.

greenmule · May 10, 2009

Be interested in the kioti dealers opinion of this,[the ones that are on this board].

lexgs · May 10, 2009

My injector pump just failed on a CK25 at 190 hours, 3 years old and out of warrantee. The good news is that Kioti will replace it up to 5 years or 3000 hours. Ask your dealer to contact Kioti and other than transportation they will pick up the cost for a new pump and installation labor.

Jerry/MT · May 10, 2009

Gittyup said:
Well, seems I've joined the ranks of those whose injector pump has failed. Was moving some mulch today, running at about 2000 rpms when suddenly the rpms dropped to 1000. I pressed on the throttle pedal. Nothing happened. I tried the hand throttle. No change. Then it just died. Started it back up right away and in short order it did it again. I saw some dirt in the fuel filter bowl so thought maybe that was it. So, I put in a new filter and cleaned the bowl out thoroughly. Restarted the tractor. Ran for about 5 minutes and started doing it again. Restarted once again and this time the engine Revved to 4000 rpms! I quickly shut off the key switch. Tractor kept on running! So, then I quickly stalled the tractor in high gear. Needless to say, I'm not a happy camper. I'm at 3 years and 1 month, 324 hours.

Sounds like the overspeed governor failed if it reved to 4K!

Gittyup · May 10, 2009

I have a CK25 gear. I'm pretty sure it's the injector pump, as it sometimes won't idle and other times runs away. Neither throttle has any effect, when this occurs. Plus I have read other threads on here about this behavior on other CK's.

I did check the linkages. Both are moving freely back and forth as expected, and I keep them clean and lubed.

I like my tractor. It's a beast. I just hope Kioti fixes this. It seems they have been stepping up and making this right. I don't know if the new ones are any more improved or not. Sure seems to be an inherent design issue, perhaps exascerpated by new fuel chemistries (at least I think I read this somewhere). One would think that pumps designed to pump diesel would do so without being prone to attack from the very fuel they are created to move. I've always used fresh diesel from the local Shell station that sells a lot of diesel and has fairly new tanks.

I bought from a distant dealer, but will be trying the closest dealer for repair. The distant dealer is willing to come fix it as long as I pay for travel (fair enough). But, because of the distance, I'm going to see if the local dealer will be a less expensive option. We'll see how they treat me tomorrow, when I call it in.

Coyote machine · May 10, 2009

Gittyup,
The injection pump is probably the most complex item on the tractor because it has to meter precise amounts of fuel to all injectors through all load ranges. Not an easy item to fix, to build, or to have work properly these days with all kinds of fuel issues plaguing every type of engine in the diesel and marine fields. Something may have gotten past a filter and lodged in a screen and forced the pump to act the way it is currently.
Have you done any recent service work on the tractor- routine filter and fluid changes, or anything that might be leading to a: ...'ever since I did this the tractor is running weird?' type situation....
Unlikely it has anything to do with anything you or a service guy did, but the sooner you get the local dealer to look at it and verify the problem the sooner it will be fixed.
FWIW, when I ran my foreign car repair and sales business we used to replace, on occasion, diesel injector pumps on Mercedes diesels. There was basically no way to fix or adjust the pump, for the most part the best solution was to do a remanufactured part exchange, for which there was a ridiculous core charge to make sure the old pump went back to the factory for complete rebuild.

BJN644 · May 11, 2009

From what I remember from other post, there was a plastic gear in the injection pump that would break and bind up the internal workings of the pump. If that is what happened it would be nice to know if all of Kioti injection pumps have this plastic gear or if it's specific to a certain year, model.

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

lexgs · May 11, 2009

The plastic gears are what failed in my pump because I disassembled mine to find out what was wrong. The gear teeth break off and then get jammed and cause the fuel rack to get hung up and then the governor can not do it's job. I'm not sure if this is a fuel problem or just a bad design. I'm sure that metal gears would last forever with just about any type of fuel. I have started using OptiLub XPD additive just in case it is a fuel lubrication problem.

RADDAD50 · May 11, 2009

I just got my Ck25 back Friday with a new injector pump, all cost except the hauling to and from the dealer were paid for by Kioti. What yours is doing is the same thing mine did. It runs great know.

wallace · May 11, 2009

And what would you like us to respond with?
I have seen my share of a couple of pumps and Kioti has treated every failure case by case.

BJN644 · May 12, 2009

wallace said:
And what would you like us to respond with?
I have seen my share of a couple of pumps and Kioti has treated every failure case by case.

Rick, has it just been the CK 25's that have been affected or have all of them had a pump fail?
Thanks

Gittyup · May 12, 2009

I spoke with the local dealer yesterday. They won't fix it in the field and want to charge for both pick up and drop off. Said they couldn't pick it up until Friday. Now I could transport it myself, if I could get in on the trailer (afraid to start it, if it even will). Local didn't give me a warm fuzzy they'd go to bat for me with Kioti either. Based on what they are quoting for pickup/drop off and "labor", I think the local dealer would end up costing me as much and maybe more than the distant one. So, I called Wallace yesterday and he is coming today to fix it at my house! Great response and service once again from Rick. I know it's going to cost me a few bucks. Don't know how much just yet. But, I feel more comfortable with this approach.

My real concern is will this pump be any better? Does anyone know if there has been a design change?

Patches · May 12, 2009

Gittyup said:
I spoke with the local dealer yesterday. They won't fix it in the field and want to charge for both pick up and drop off. Said they couldn't pick it up until Friday. Now I could transport it myself, if I could get in on the trailer (afraid to start it, if it even will). Local didn't give me a warm fuzzy they'd go to bat for me with Kioti either. Based on what they are quoting for pickup/drop off and "labor", I think the local dealer would end up costing me as much and maybe more than the distant one. So, I called Wallace yesterday and he is coming today to fix it at my house! Great response and service once again from Rick. I know it's going to cost me a few bucks. Don't know how much just yet. But, I feel more comfortable with this approach.

My real concern is will this pump be any better? Does anyone know if there has been a design change?

While Rick is there changing out your pump,and you have his ear, check on those questions(how common is this, is it confined to the 25's, was your failure the same{plastic gears}as others, etc.,etc

Then you can let us know "the rest of the story"

wallace · May 12, 2009

We have seen it in the CK25 and 30.
I think we did one on and old style DK40 also.
From what I understand it was a hardness spec on the internal gears.
Yes it was corrected.
This is something that is a hit or miss what I mean is there has only be a handful of my customer that experienced this failure I have 3 times as many in the field that have not had this issue.

greenmule · May 12, 2009

Well,alright rick,you did come and help again!
So,kiotis replacing on case by case basis,that don't sound good,what does that mean,if tractors have a newer pump they are not but if they have a pump with certain model they are or does it mean if somebody shows them a copy of this they will,or what??

When did they address this problem on assembly line? [mine was bought back last august].seems like the two here are at least three years old.

What [plus or minus a hundred dollars or so],would this cost,if you got tractor to dealer and picked up yourself.??