UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!!

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/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #1  

AndyMA

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"Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers' refusal to set a "date certain" to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at foreign automakers in the United States.
Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research."

And just what are all these "union workers" going to do when they loose there jobs over a $ 4 / hour pay cut? Unions are a thing of the past.

Andy
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #2  
It's a tough situation and the times certainly are changing.

I'm near the NUMMI plant in Fremont CA and they announced line cutbacks and forced shutdowns... so far no lay-offs.

Eventually you change or you wither away. Seeing a lot of that with the Housing Meltdown...

I worked in a Union Shop for a period of time and it was an adjustment. The guys I worked with certainly were very qualified and well trained... I did have to make adjustments. Working in a Union Shop, I had to be careful not to do things above or below my classification.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #3  
The union may be part of the problem, but the executives and management shouldn't be ignored for their role they played. Poor/unpopular designs, bad investments, excessive compensation, etc. Some of the senators are being sort of hard on the union membership.

They've seen how things have gone for other unions, United/Delta airlines vs pilots and mechanics. Union makes concessions, executives get bonuses.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #4  
Granted executive management deserves a lot of the blame as do the shareholders for putting unrealistic performance expectations on the companies; but when I heard the UAW essentially put the final monkey wrench in the works, I just shook my head at their stupidity.

Colorado is not infested with unions like the rust belt is, and my former line of work is not union organized except for Boeing. However, from what I have seen, unions breed high priced mediocrity.

I'm not looking forward to seeing what the stock market will do tomorrow as a result of this news.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #5  
It's important to note that McConnell and many of the other Republican senators who are leading the opposition to any bailout of the Domestic auto industry are doing the bidding of foreign auto makers who have operations located in their states. They have subsidized the foreign manufacturers to the tune of $100k - $250k per job.

It's really a shame to see these senators who have wrapped themselves in the flag on so many occasions opposing the American worker in favor of foreign corporations.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #6  
Another thing is it's ironic that they give the $700B to the banking industry without major changes, yet won't make a loan to the Big 3.

The bigger sticking point there should have demanded at least a wholesale change of executives, severely limiting bonuses and so forth. I'm sure the UAW would have been much more likely to make concessions anyway if something like that happened, as a good faith type deal that they're not the only ones taking pay cuts, etc.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #7  
EX3200 and others,

It is true that many of the opposing senators have other interests such as recruiting foreign automakers to their states, but I see their point. Many of these companies seek to settle in areas where land is inexpensive and work (labor) costs are cheaper. Of course, they are going to offer incentives to such stable financial companies to settle there. The short term expense is going to be far outweighed by long-term benefit to their district. I do NOT see many foreign makers seeking to open unnumerable factories in areas currently heavily occupied by the "big three" on a widespread basis. These senators do not want to see monies procured by the government from taxpayers--some from their districts--fueling and supplementing their "competition". I can see their concern. To me, it is simple math: one cannot pay workers higher levels of pay and keep them on the dime for years after they have ceased offering any manufacturing benefit--and pay extensive benefits--in the current economy and have ANY hope of keeping afloat. The interesting observation, much like those dancing in the ballrooms as the Titanic went down, is that many leaders with the UAW seem to feel that sacrifice does not need to come from them to maintain viability. Nothing could be less true. As for the executives, while I do not condone paying someone handsomely will they pilot that same ship to the bottom, the "compensation" packages represent a fairly small amount of the total problem. Though to any of us these dollar amounts are staggering, to these companies they are minute and really equivalent to borrowing a quarter to put into a bubble gum machine--it is not going to save them.

John M
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #8  
"Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers' refusal to set a "date certain" to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at foreign automakers in the United States.
Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research."

And just what are all these "union workers" going to do when they loose there jobs over a $ 4 / hour pay cut? Unions are a thing of the past.

Andy
What are all the CEO,s& VP,s going to do when they are not making millions of $$ and flying around free on company jets.DON,T just blame the union members.Why are folks not worried about giving the crooked banks(aig,bear sterns, and so on) $700 billion without any hearings?Why are they not grilled in front of Millions on national TV?My guess that they would find half of the folks in the senate & house with dirt on there hands and be exposed also.PS.I am one of them lazy union workers (32 years IBEW)electric lineman,that have fought for a safe work place,health care for or familes,pensions,sick days,paid vactions.I have also worked my lazy butt off 18-20 hour shifts in the worst weather conditions that you can imagine while you were home sleeping in bed nice and warm.coobie
 
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/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #9  
I heard a year to do parity pay.

But like all media stories, I am sure that the whole story on the collapse of the talks has yet to be heard.

Come on, think about it.... the Union understands what is going on in the economy and their company. They are not trying to go out of work. What benefit does going bankrupt serve them?

There must be something we have not been told yet.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #10  
Coobie,

Although I know you were responding primarily to Andy; I for one, feel your individual circumstance is quite different from that going on right now. The domestic automakers' problem is obviously multi-factorial, starting at the top. These liabilities have been very well documented in the media and I shall not go over them again. The most concerning thing to me is that the car makers simply cannot sell enough product to offset the cost to them of personnel that are no longer making things. They have not thought out upfitting of equipment and streamlining processes, and sadly the UAW honchos seem to have greatly contributed to this problem. As usual in the media, sensationalism reigns supreme: although the CEO's extravagance is a bit nauseating to me also, it represents a small fraction monetarily of the problem (and the bailout). As I recall, with the ORIGINAL 700 (actually 760--they added just two times what the automakers are requesting and little was said of it) billion dollar bank bailout proposal (the one that did not pass)--in the initial proposal the "CEO compensation" package amount was around 1/500th of a percent of the entire package. While I think that someone who manages a business so poorly should not get anything like this, in the overall financial scheme it is a negligible amount. Although the percentages here might be different (I do not know that anyone knows for sure), compared to long-standing "dead costs" it is a small amount. I should also note on a personal level that about two months ago I contacted a dealer about potentially buying TWO fairly expensive vehicles that they had on their lot, one for my wife and one for me. We have excellent credit and thankfully a solid income in these times. I could have paid cash for one vehicle and would have probably financed the other for a small amount only. After three calls and a pleasant test drive, the sales person never called back to finalize things. I ultimately decided (the dealer did not know this) not to trade but just yesterday received a call back asking if I was still interested in the vehicles. When asked why they did not contact us sooner, the only reply was it was "lost in the shuffle." This dealer lost nearly $100,000 in sales due to poor follow up and marginal customer service. To me, this is one part of the problem in a nutshell and likely spells the end of the big three as we know them.

John M
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #11  
There was a news report a few days ago citing one of the opposing bail-out senators, name I can't recall, as saying that in 2007 GM and Toyota USA each produced the same numbers of cars, but GM ended up with a $35 Billion loss and Toyota USA ended the year with a $17 Billion profit.
That should tell us something about the way business is done. Anyone care to guess what it may be?
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #12  
The union may be part of the problem, but the executives and management shouldn't be ignored for their role they played. Poor/unpopular designs, bad investments, excessive compensation, etc. Some of the senators are being sort of hard on the union membership.

Rather than pointing fingers I thing everyone should be focused on saving as may jobs as possible.
From what I have heard from the media :rolleyes: the executive has made concessions on their compensations. The union is crazy not to make their own concessions, $4 x ~54000 workers works out to $216,000 per hour of savings (almost $2 million a day!).

I have been inside both Chrysler and Honda assembly plants. There is no comparison between the two; the Honda plant was CLEAN, workers were PROFESSIONAL. Chrysler was exactly the opposite. I have a hard time feeling sorry for the UAW. The UAW has had many good years and lots of $, shame on them for not stepping up the plate and being part of the solution.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #13  
I feel this all falls back on the gas prices. We were spoild for way too long. We should have been paying $4 a gallon back in 2000 or so. That would have keep us in line with inflation and the rest of the world. When it did finally go to $4 we were already overspending and living outside of our means as a country. We were mortgaged to the max and something had to give. People let homes go into foreclosure, stopped making car payments, and basically stopped buying luxury items like SUV's, campers, boats, ect. The economy went to pot quick.

Chris
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #14  
I was amazed when I learned of the UAW "job bank" ..... get layed off and still collect 90% of your pay until you get called back ....what a deal! ..... It's that sort of benefit the unions really need to give up on. I have heard for years the unequitable pay and benefits the UAW has gotten vs. anybody else. They killed their own industry....I have a 2000 F150 that I've been very happy with. It has 230k miles on it and is still my daily driver. I'd love to buy another....but I'm concerned about what I'd be getting and what support I'd get after.....don't know what to do now....drive it at least another year I guess and see what wrings out. All this stuff going on and I'm going into retirement in 2 weeks ....whew....talk about an upset apple cart ....this next year is going to be interesting to say the least. (we'll be selling and moving as well)
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #15  
What are all the CEO,s& VP,s going to do when they are not making millions of $$ and flying around free on company jets.DON,T just blame the union members.Why are folks not worried about giving the crooked banks(aig,bear sterns, and so on) $700 billion without any hearings?Why are they not grilled in front of Millions on national TV?My guess that they would find half of the folks in the senate & house with dirt on there hands and be exposed also.PS.I am one of them lazy union workers (32 years IBEW)electric lineman,that have fought for a safe work place,health care for or familes,pensions,sick days,paid vacations.I have also worked my lazy butt off 18-20 hour shifts in the worst weather conditions that you can imagine while you were home sleeping in bed nice and warm.coobie

CEO's and VP do not fly around for free. The way the tax code is written for private airplanes is that if its on company business you can wright off the per seat cost of a first class airline ticket. Example: Indy to Atlanta may cost $1000 per seat in a private jet but only cost $650 on a airline so you wright off $650.

As for going and playing the cost must be billed back to the employee. So on the same trip the the wright off would be $0. Now some CEO's may have it in the compensation package that they get X number of hours per year private personal travel. I have worked for 6 CEO's and only on had this and I believe it was 40 hours. I did not like it primarily because it was on the weekends and that means I had to work on the weekends but I dealt with it. I would say our new CEO which has turned our company around in the 5 years he has been with us uses the plane less than 10 hours per year at his own expense. He has offered it to other employee's at the same deal but only one has taken him up on the offer.

Chris
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #16  
I spent 13 years in the Teamsters and the last 8 of those years as a shop steward. I've seen the good that a union can do, and seen the harm it can cause a company. It's a fine line that easily gets mixed up. On the union side, there is a problem with taking care of the member first and letting the company deal with it's problems itself. We protect our slugs and attack those who made the slugs look bad. Many times I got into it with other members, our business agent and the general secretary of the union. If it was a power play, then the customer suffered until the company gave in so that we could prove a point. Usually it was something trivial and not in our contract anyway. A good example was in getting an extra 5 minutes for break time. We decided that it didn't specify in the contract that break time was 15 minutes, so we decided that 20 minutes was how long a break should be. Management didn't like this and started writing up everyone who took 20 minutes. Most of the members were sheep and would either take 15 minutes, or work right through there breaks. We, the union, would threaten and in some cases, deny members a days work for not taking a break. We organized slowdowns, walkouts and problems for the company. In the end, it was always a matter of time until we got what we wanted.

From those I've talked to in other unions, including NUMMI, it's all the same. Nobody does more then they are supposed to, and the union decides what that is based on the old timers and their own idea of what a days work actually is. New guys are taught that doing too much is bad and that if you don't follow along with the union way, you won't be there very long.

The UAW is guilty of this on such an exagerated scale that it's beyond comprehending. I've joked around with union leadership that has done some pretty extreme stunts, ruined many a trucking company and are amazed themselves at what the UAW gets away with. Dock workers might be worse, but they actually do a heck of a job and bust their buts. At least the ones in the SF Bay area do, as they are the only ones I know first hand.

I think wage ajustments are silly and don't actually much affect on the problems facing the auto industry. It's the waste and excessive spending on things that are not needed that's killing them. Paying workers to stay home is a big problem. Paying them when they are not working and their benifits just adds to the problem.

Managment needs to grow a set and actually manage. Instead, they are like the government with an unlimited amount of money to spend without regard of actually earning it. They overspent themselves and now want more money to keep spending. Cut spending.

I've always felt that the government could easily solve all it's money issues if they just gave half of what a person can save them, to that person tax free. If I worked for the government and told them a way to save a million dollars a year and it worked, then I should be paid half a million dollars tax free for that year. After that, the government would continue to save that money and the incentive is there for everyone to figure out ways to save money. The big three auto makers could do the same thing. The employees and even managment knows where the waste is. Everyone who's ever worked for a company knows of ways to save money. Make the reward worth the effort and people will do it. Right now, there is no reward, no incentive and no reason to step up and do this.

I'm not sure if Unions are a thing of the past, but if they are to survive, they will have to make some serious changes to how they operate. The other car manufacturers that are not union are killing them.

Eddie
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #17  
I used to work in a union shop. A supervisor was looking for a guy that had vanished for the last 1/2 of night shift. Found him asleep behind a stack of boxes on an air mattress. He yelled at the guy to get the F up! He got up and punched the super in the face for waking him up. He was walked out. 3 days later and after much union threats the guy was back and the super was shipped off to a different plant to protect him.

Unions right now are like a political party, they do what ever they can to stay in power. On occasion and by accident, they sometimes do benefit their members. But not often and not as much as they benefit themselves.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #18  
My sisters best friends husband worked in the maint dept at the Ford Plant in my home town. He had 4 guys in his dept. They bought a pager and traded it off every other week. If it was your week you got the pager. You then went to work and clocked in then went home. Come the end of your shift you came back and clocked out. If the boss said where is ___________ the others said in the can and then paged him, he came back to work and found who was looking for him. They got away with this for years until they got caught and all lost their jobs. A month later they were back at work with back pay.

Chris
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #19  
My sisters best friends husband worked in the maint dept at the Ford Plant in my home town. He had 4 guys in his dept. They bought a pager and traded it off every other week. If it was your week you got the pager. You then went to work and clocked in then went home. Come the end of your shift you came back and clocked out. If the boss said where is ___________ the others said in the can and then paged him, he came back to work and found who was looking for him. They got away with this for years until they got caught and all lost their jobs. A month later they were back at work with back pay.

Chris

This is complete BS! I worked in a GM plant and the entrances were video recorded 24/7. It's lies like this that have added to the anti-union witch trials going on right now.
 
/ UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!! #20  
This is a copy of an email I received this morning.


A Ford Dealer in the Pittsburg area, outstanding letter to the editor

Intermountain Letter to the Editor- Elkins Fordland


Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the
Pittsburgh Region?
Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the
U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers?
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord? And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid? Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic?
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda? Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world!
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Also, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?
Jim Jackson
Elkins



 
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