So, You think you own your land...

[mikim]

I never did understand how it was fair and right for someone to own the minerals under a piece of land they didn't own. Just never has sounded "right" to me. Seems to me if you own the land - you should own it all the way down to the hot spot. At what depth does ownership change hands? and how doyou survey at that depth? ....jus' don't make sense.

 

[dmccarty]

...It also seems ironic that a Supreme Court considered so "conservative" ruled that a town has the right of eminant domain to an extent that well to do neighborhoods can be bulldozed for a new shopping center that will bring more sales tax to the city council. That seemed like the most non-conservative thing I could ever dream of. I guess the government is the government, is the government, no matter what party is in charge....

The nonConservative members of the Supreme Court allowed the eminant domain law to stand.

Many of the trades just drop trash where ever they go. Its just plain lazy. I saw it when my house was built. When the power company, under an easement, brought in power. The timber company did the same. When I caught them I made the pick it up. I had various trades pooping all over my land. Litterely. Some where workng on neighbor's property but they did not have a Porta John so they came on my land to "use" it. I don't mind if they buried their waste but they just left it there. One contractor kept leaving behind his waste and old T Shirts. He did not believe in TP I guess. So I left HIS mess, all of IT, on his trailer.

Later,
Dan

 

[JazzDad]

Were we naive? You look the land over, see old pump jacks that haven't moved in decades, and you say to yourself, 'no one will ever drill around here again, besides, we hold the major percentage of mineral rights'. And, 'certainly, no one can come on my land without my permission'. Even the real estate agents blow off concerns about mineral rights.
We just wanted to move out of the nasty, big city and own a few acres in the countryside. It would have been a much more difficult decision if we knew about this scenario.
Jim (unclebuck) brought up another aspect of the whole problem; the aftermath.

 

[California]

Wow! Look at all the new environmentalists!

I own mineral rights with similar rules, a gold mining claim in the Sierras. The provisions covering it it are probably the last active remnant of the old homestead law. Originally, working your claim profitably led to obtaining an absolute Federal land deed. To maintain a pre-ownership exclusive mineral-extraction license requires you to either work on the claim each year or, most recently, you can pay annual rent to BLM, but you can no longer advance to a federal deed.

But it is continually emphasized to us by BLM and Forest Service (Federal), Fish & Game (State), and the county assessor (annual property taxes on the value of out interest) that what we own is simply a right to extract minerals. We stand responsible to safeguard fish and other potentially damaged wildlife in this beautiful trout stream, and we have no right to exclude hunters, fishermen, or just campers who want to set up their own camp within the boundaries of the Claim. The can even occupy our campsite subject only to common decency, not to any exclusive right we might claim. And all the water belongs to Hydroelectric and water-district interests downstream so we have to preserve the quality of that, too. Timber sales and grazing permits can (and have) overlay our claim. Our rights on 'our' mining claim are pretty limited.

My advice to my fellow 'landowner' environmentalists - understand the law and don't waste your energy claiming a position that has no law to support it.

As for those oil companies that make all the rules at the local and State level in Texas - how high up does their influence extend, anyway?

 

[jinman]

Because the property owner sold those rights. If he wants them back he should buy them back. If he didn't intend to let the guy who he sold the mineral rights to act on those rights then the sale was fradulent.

Hmm...

Because the property owner sold BOTH rights. If the mirnerals rights owner wants surface rights, then they should buy them. If the surface owner can't use his surface acreage and still has to pay taxes, then the sale was fradulent and so are the taxes.

All I'm saying is that a company with mineral rights should compensate me for the surface area either by leasing my property or buying it at a fair and equitable price. I love oil and gas and realize the need for mineral rights and drilling. I'm not a NIMBY person. I just want to be compensated fairly for my loss. Two "rights" should not make a "wrong" to either party. Negotiation and mediation are all I want.

 

[Toiyabe]

... besides, we hold the major percentage of mineral rights'.

You even own the majority of the mineral rights? So if there is economically recoverable oil, you'll get the majority of the royalties, plus a lease fee?

And if there isn't oil, all you'll have to do is put up with the exploration crews tramping around for a while?

 

[Unclebuck257]

So, Jim, do they accuse you of seeing "black helicopters", too?
I am puzzled if the oil and gas attorney our little group engaged provided us with much value.
Small groups are not going to change the laws; we need a more organized approach to changing our laws.

JazzDad,

No blackchopper accusations yet!!! In fact, I've been very surprised, as have the neighbors fighting this with me, that something like that hasn't happened! I say that, especially since our attorney styled this case with our group's name AND then, in addition, my name personally too, as the plaintiffs. In fact, at the Railroad Commission every piece of evidence and every photograph we presented into evidence was labeled with my last name and then numbered #1 through whatever.

Regarding the attorney, I feel as though I engaged the BEST attorney in the State of Texas to represent us in a matter of this type. His name is David Frederick of Lowerre and Frederick in Austin, Texas. Keep in mind that an attorney is needed when you go before the Railroad Commission to protest ANYTHING oil and gas, if only to keep track of the appeal points when you lose before the RRC. I say that, just like that, because The RRC is as biased a Commission, in favor of oil and gas in this case, as I've ever seen. Any protest system they have in place is only there to make the public falsley feel as though they have a say in anything and to make the public feel warm and fuzzy. Again, in our case, we PROVED the applicant lied to the RRC on their application about VERY DANGEROUS aspects that could have cost us all out here everything we have and our health too! They then committed perjury and submitted false evidence to back themselves up, but it meant NOTHING to the RRC. Heck, their rep even admitted that to me and I testified to it in our second hearing, with no rebuttal of any kind from them, but it meant nothing!

In reality, the public has no say, no influence on any decision made by the RRC and all decisions made by the RRC are made in favor of oil and gas! In fact, our newspaper editor called the RRC when our case was still young and was told that oil and gas companies always get permitted when they apply for an injection well, public protests or not.

You and I disagree about "small groups" though. I've done those guest speaking engagements in a lot of Texas counties where people are just now getting hit with the drilling operations and these injection wells. As a result of being educated from those listening at those speaking engagements, those people and those large groups of people are standing up and saying "No More"!!! They're writing to their state reps and demanding change! They're hearing that they can fight oil and gas, and how to do it! They are reading now about the candidates and asking how they stand on oil and gas issues and looking into how much money of a candidate's re-election campaign is coming from oil and gas. They're making such a big noise that newspapers are carrying story upon story of unjust practices of The RRC. TV News Shows are doing many more stories about all aspects of oil and gas drilling and the extreme dangers of various things about it, ESPECIALLY their ( oil and gas) unregulated water usage and these injection wells poisoning water supplies and the health hazzards! No, the average Texas citizen is making a difference, but we do need MANY MORE people on board and to care. So far it's mostly rural citizens because that's where this stuff is taking place.

Our case is presently in The Third Court of Appeals and we believe we will win this appeal and set new, good, law, for ALL Texas citizens! It comes up for oral arguments soon and our attorneys have already submitted some brilliant briefs!!

 

[Toiyabe]

Someone call Hollywood, I think we've got the script to Erin Brokovich II.

Deep injection wells sound even scarier than power lines, it'll play well. Throw in some Texas bumpkins who overcome their ignorance and bigotry to enlist a sassy California female lawyer, and there won't be a dry eye at the Oscar ceremony.

 

[KaiB]

Is there one current case open with either the TNRC or the RRC where an injection well has impacted a drinking water aquifer beyond screening levels?

 

[jand38]

I knew the point would be missed I never said I sold the minerals (Example) family has one child He marries and moves many miles away where his wife grew up he sells the land 10,15 years ago and kept the minerals rights ,has no interest in the land could care less what happens just cash the checks. The person who bought the land knew that no mineral rights would be conveyed but if he does not want to live in the city this is the only option. I live on 6 acres and my property is in a oil producing lease and if you where try and have open windows at night you would hear the pump jack pumping and they do squeak and make nose plus large trucks come in at all hours of the night to retrieve the oil and last you do not want the well to have a problem the pulling of the pipe goes on 24 hr a day and the work goes on 24 hour a day so if you believe there is no noise you are badly mistaken

 

[slowrev]

This mineral rights issue is an old story to all who grew up in eastern KY.
They will take you entire maoutain top off and fill up your valleys with rock and shale.....

a drilling rig is nothing.

 

[rogdan]

It seems Surface and Mineral rights are taxed here in WV from reading the delinquencies in the county paper.
The problem in buying the mineral rights in this are is they were sold off in tracts of 1000's of acres and are only sold that way (I'm told). Someone referred to this type of deal as herding cats and thats sounds about right considering absence owners ect...

 

[JazzDad]

That sounds like the same sort of thing going on in Texas, Roger. Many entities can own portions of the minerals rights under your property. In our case, a Houston bank allowed the exploration company onto our land. How long ago did this transaction take place? ________?
"hear the pump jack pumping and they do squeak"
Milton, it still beats hearing the nightly shots, sirens and stereos in the city, eh?
Jim, is there any place we can watch the progress of your court case?

 

[KaiB]

I think the basic issue here is simple: Property ownership.

At its most basic level, absolute ownership involves not only the surface, but also the minerals beneath it. (Let's not get into water rights and off the wall discussion, but try to remain in the current discussion).

Mineral rights get sold, leased and traded on a daily basis. Its business, just as the surface gets sold, traded and leased. If you buy surface in an active area without researching and understanding the sub-surface ownership, who's fault is it. The two are tied together.

If I owned 5 acres, I'm sure I wouldn't want a pump jack in my back yard, but I wouldn't think of buying those 5 if the possibility existed. I won't buy land with certain soils or without certain water, why would I buy land if I had an issue with the owners of the property beneath it.

As I see it, the larger problem here is the "ex-urbanization" of what used to be farm or range land; concepts, paradigms and uses change, and thus these issues rear up.

We currently have a quarter section for sale. It is within 20 minutes of a growing town, and its prices accordingly (as homesite/recreational property, not farmland). I can understand a buyer not wanting exploration on the property if he wanted to build his dream home on it...but, he should darn well know going in what the story is.

If he doesn't buy the minerals when he buys the surface, he won't participate in the process, we will.

 

[Unclebuck257]

Is there one current case open with either the TNRC or the RRC where an injection well has impacted a drinking water aquifer beyond screening levels?

Not for impacting the aquifer since little to no studies have ever been done that I know of. This is probably because until recently, as I've explained earlier, very few questioned oil and gas, these injection wells, etc. There have been several cases where the toxic liquid waste has come up to the surface again, through nearby operating oil and gas wells, has poisoned private water wells, and stock tanks. Also, until recently, oil and gas and the RRC denied EVERYTHING about involvement in any water problems!! Now, they can no longer do that and they are squirming!

I don't have links, but look for an article by Rusty Middleton in The Texas Observer Magazine titled, "What Lies Beneath". I believe it's still online.

Also, look up "Penola" or "Panola" County, Texas, and the fight going on there with the Rev David Hudson heading up the fight for those folks. The ENTIRE town's water supply was poisoned by a Commercial Injection Well. When EPA recently came out to check it FINALLY, after 6 years, their people wore HazMat suits to handle soil samples. BTW, The RRC had been covering up and lying about what caused the problem there for years. Hudson got to the truth by getting paperwork through the Freedom of Information Act and his attorney. Those folks have been drinking bottled water for a long time now.

Also, in the archives of Fox Channel 4 in DFW there are two EXCELLENT stories on these wells, including David Hudson's and our fight. Excellent footage too of what these injection wells look like If you need, I'll give you exact dates their stories aired, but I believe one was Dec 12, 2006, and the reporter was Paul Adrian.

IF all this water being injected is JUST Salt Water, as the RRC and Oil and Gas would like us all to continue believing, I'll ask you this question...When was the last time you heard of just plain salt water exploding and catching fire!!??

In 2003 or 2004 there were three tank trucks backed up to an injection well, bringing this supposed Salt Water to the injection well. While the truck drivers were pumping there truck contents into the holding tanks, one truuck driver lite a cigarette and there was a tremendous explosion! I believe one driver was killed and two injured! Now there's a regulation that these drivers cannot smoke near their trucks when hauling or unloading.

In our recent heavy thunderstorms in Texas this past Spring, there were several instances across the state where lightening struck these holding tanks at injection well sites and the tanks blew up and caught fire.

I'm on my way out but I'll try to put in links later today, if I get back in time.

Oh, did I mention that this "JUST PLAIN" salt water contains BENZENE!!!

 

[Unclebuck257]

That sounds like the same sort of thing going on in Texas, Roger. Many entities can own portions of the minerals rights under your property. In our case, a Houston bank allowed the exploration company onto our land. How long ago did this transaction take place? ________?
"hear the pump jack pumping and they do squeak"
Milton, it still beats hearing the nightly shots, sirens and stereos in the city, eh?
Jim, is there any place we can watch the progress of your court case?

No, but if you'd like I'll keep you apprised. We have oral arguments next Thursday in Travis County ( Austin) and we should know within two months after that.

 

[Unclebuck257]

I will go further and mention this too. I don't know if it's permitted in here, but I hope it is.

Our legal fees in this 2 1/2 year fight have exceeded $30,000.00 and those of us active in this fight have donated the funds to cover a good portion of that money. I am a big game hunter and came up with a fund raising idea, if any of you are interested in participating.

We're have a Benefit BBQ on September 29, 2007, BUT the FIRST DOOR PRIZE is a FULLY PAID Elk Hunt for the winner and a friend, with a top rated outfitter in Colorado, for first rifle season in 2008. This includes hunting licenses too. Hunt takes place on a 6500 acre private ranch, hunting wild Elk, not ranch raised Elk, and since I'm second in command of the outfitting business for 1st and 2nd rifle seasons, I can guarantee a class hunt. Our success rate is 80-90%, and one guide to two hunters. All great meals included and we have a lodge we built 9 years ago. Hunters sleep on bunk beds and 6 inch matresses. This is a "Draw Only Unit" in Colorado, unit #67, but we have GUARANTEED tags for the winners!!

Anyone interested, please PM me. No need to be present to win!! This hunt is literally worth thousands!

We're only selling 200 tickets total, at a cost of $200.00 each. Odds of winning are very good at 200 to 1. Other door prizes include a 300WSM rifle, 3-$100.00 gift cards from Cabelas, etc.

 

[KaiB]

Gasoline also contains benzene and hundreds of thousands of Underground Storage Tanks have leaked. In most cases, the impact is benign. I have personally been directly involved in hundreds of these cases, as well as about 50 oilfield environmental cases, and can tell the stories as well as anyone can.

While there can be no doubt that practices in the oil and gas industry over the past 75 years or so have indeed created environmental issues, current regulations and modern practices have curtailed almost all negative impact.

Horror stories abound; but an honest look will reveal to the observer that two sides to every story do in fact exist.

 

[riptides]

What OINKS me in the whole property rights issues are the taxes.

If I am paying taxes on the land, you my friend should have no rights.

Pretty simple, isn't it.

-Mike Z.

 

[Unclebuck257]

Gasoline also contains benzene and hundreds of thousands of Underground Storage Tanks have leaked. In most cases, the impact is benign. I have personally been directly involved in hundreds of these cases, as well as about 50 oilfield environmental cases, and can tell the stories as well as anyone can.

While there can be no doubt that practices in the oil and gas industry over the past 75 years or so have indeed created environmental issues, current regulations and modern practices have curtailed almost all negative impact.

Horror stories abound; but an honest look will reveal to the observer that two sides to every story do in fact exist.

KaiB,

Your second paragraph statement above is a joke and sounds just like every other statement about the negative affects and impact of oil and gas, when made by OIL and GAS!! You and I both KNOW that's HOGWASH!!. Yes, there are two sides to every story, and for way too long now, oil and gas has been able to cover up the truth and lie to the public. They do this through BIG MONEY!! Money buys many things, including some newspaper people, TV news people, legislators, local politicians, etc. You have one heck of a nerve coming in here and making any statement that most oil and gas companies care about ANYTHING, especially what regs are on the books regarding safety of the public's heath etc. They care about only ONE thing and that's making the almighty buck!! They care NOTHING about the people, with VERY few exceptions!!

First of all, they ( oil and gas) don't follow a lot of the regs they have on the books, because they don't have to. The regs are there all right, but THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWED!! No one is checking and the RRC section head admitted in our second hearing, UNDER OATH, that they don't have the manpower to check and must take the applicant's word for the truth on any application for an injection well that they receive. THAT ALONE is breaking their own regs, as their regs say they are to visually have an RRC field rep check all sites PRIOR to EVEN BEGINNING considering an application for an injection well. As it sits now, if there is no protest letter received within the 15 day protest period, the application is AUTOMATICALLY administratively approved, without an RRC rep ever inspecting the site AT ANY TIME!!

Oh, and also as per sworn testimony of RRC personel, no one checks as these injection wells are operating either, because there aren't enough RRC field reps. Want to guess how the RRC keeps track of just how much is injected into each well, each day, month and year? The operator (the oil and gas company) submits a written report each month, at the end of the month, as to what and how much liquid toxic waste was injected into that injection well.

Now, let's say $.80 per barrel is what the operator gets paid for every barrel of liquid toxic waste they inject into their injection well, and they're only supposed to inject 20,000 BARRELS PER DAY, but they KNOW that no one checks on that, except for what records THEY TURN IN, and they can easily inject 40,000 BARRELS PER DAY and double their money income daily and never get caught. I don't know about the rest of the folks reading this, but me personally, I already feel really safe because I know those oil and gas boys have ONLY the public's best interest, health and welfare, at heart and wouldn't do anything like that!! ( I almost can't type anymore because of the tears in my eyes from laughing so hard over that one!!)

Oh, and you're right in that the RRC people do come out and check things, BUT only AFTER a problem arises and is reported by someone in the public. At that point, the barn door is opened and the horse already ran out!! It's TOO LATE!! Otherwise, if they can, they cover it up and say nothing to anyone!

No my friend, what you're trying to spin is simply not true and Thank God the Texas public is no longer satisfied with just the word of oil and gas. Just check out Chico,Texas, Boyd, Texas, and again Panola County Texas as examples of that toxic liquid toxic waste coming to the surface from injection wells, poluting private water wells, and streams and those injection wells being shut down, AFTER they were approved to operate by the RRC.

You talk about Benzene as though it wasn't much to worry about. I'll just bet that you wouldn't want ANY CHANCE at all of it being in the water your family is drinking! It's very dangerous and you and I both know it!! Now add in there the other 27 or so types of toxic wastes in that liquid toxic waste in injection wells and you've really got a drinking cocktail that can kill and cause cancer along with many other health problems!

The time in which that "Oil and Gas Spin" of it all being "safe", being blindly believed, just because they say so, is now over and it's time for that industry to act in a responsible manner for present and future generations of Texans and the citizens of the United States in general. They have the technology to STOP wasting millions of gallons of fresh water for drilling and fracing, and you and I both know that too! They can recover about 85% of used water( liquid toxic waste) to use again, through a process called desalinization, but it's more expensive than just injecting it into the ground, and they just don't want to have to spend that extra money. They would save millions of gallons of fresh water, keep our groundwater safe, and help protect the public health, but they might make a million or two less a year, so they fight the desalinization process idea. It can be done, and Devon Energy is proving it, by using that process now with some of it's liquid toxic waste from drilling! Devon, and righfully so, even brags about it in newspaper articles!! They see the handwriting on the wall with all the truth that's been coming out in the last two years about the dangers of these injection wells. The rest of the industry better smarten up too in that regard!!

Once the public learns the truth, they are infuriated about it and the dangers they, their children, and grandchildren have been/will be exposed to!! Changes will be made, because the public will force those changes to be made, by several ways!!