You might be a liberal if

wroughtn_harv · Sep 8, 2002

Afternoon Ozarker, glad to see you're still alive and well./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The left is a strange group indeed. They fight tooth and nail to get religion out of government. Then they cite religion as justification for government welfare programs and accuse those opposed to then of being "godless".

Your response wasn't directed to me but I will give you an answer as to why I responded to Kelvin's post with biblical references.

In military terms I'd guess you could say I was responding with his choice of weapons./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

He was espousing the need for his god to be in my government and I was responding with the accurate observation about his god being much more of a leftist than a rightist. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif BTW Jesus did have some comments about both who come in his name under false pretenses and those who prey upon widows./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

rmorgan · Sep 8, 2002

Easy does it, Ozarker!! I just asked for clarification from Kelvin so I can understand his perspective. I assuredly didn't "cite religion as justification for government welfare programs" or suggest anything about the Pledge of Allegiance. What gives?

Kelvin · Sep 8, 2002

I'm curious re. what aspect of the life of Christ you find to be in parallel with current "extremist right wing" thinking? 

I'm not sure exactly what it is that you didn't understand about my statement regarding my trying to follow Jesus' examples even if I do get the "extremist right wing" label.

Assuming that you were genuinely interested in what I meant, let me make the statement another way. I believe that BOTH of the dominate political parties in America are LIBERAL relative to the standards that Jesus and God have set. Since the Republicans are labeled as "conservative", "right wing", or sometimes "extreme right wing", then I can certainly expect the "extreme right wing" label, if not worse, by following a standard that is along a "more narrow road" than is followed by either party.

I certainly do not believe that any aspect of the life of Christ to be anywhere near parallel with current "extremist right wing" thinking, as you indicated that I might believe.

Kelvin

Scott_in_WVA · Sep 8, 2002

Amen Ozark.....
Well said...

rmorgan · Sep 8, 2002

Kelvin--

Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't have said I was interested if I wasn't.

Kelvin · Sep 8, 2002

wroughtn_harv,

Good evening to you. Between church services this morning and evening and flying military “fly-overs” at 9/11 ceremonies this afternoon I haven’t have much of a chance to respond to your concerns.

While I feel strongly that my post is very accurate, I admit that part of me was hoping that no one would respond and the entire thread would die out. However, you have made a lot of statements and posted a few questions that would require a VERY long post to respond properly. I’ll try to make a short response now and will prepare a more detailed response later. I plan to send the detailed response via private email to you (and anyone else that desires to receive it) since I feel that this “Off-topic” discussion, which is just now starting to get interesting to me, is getting too large and is of interest to only a very few. Any input (or suggestion) from the board arbitrators regarding “how far should this topic go” would be helpful (it is probably within official guidelines but pushing limits?).

My first thought after reading your post is "are we reading the same bible, and discussing the same Jesus?". However, you made a few comments that indicate where you are coming from (your apparent lack of belief in all or part of the bible):

"his alledged life was all about...", "He allegedly fed...", are the most telling phrases that you use in the one post, while in the latest post you stated that I was espousing the need for his god to be in my government and I was responding with the accurate observation about his god being much more of a leftist than a rightist. Comment #1: I don't believe I ever espoused such a thing. [EDITED (added) Comment: I did not imply nor intend to imply any relationship between God and the government. However, I believe that when our government was created the constitution and laws of the time were heavily influenced by the bible and God's guidance, and our country did just fine until the government thought it no longer needed God.] Comment #2: Which god do you worship?

For ONE open response (in this post...maybe more later) to your comments/questions, let me say that I'm convinced that the "feeding of the multitudes" was a story about people trusting God (not government) enough to leave their comfort zones (food, shelter), trusting God (not government) to provide for them, and God (not government) taking care of the NEEDS of those who were seeking Him. Nowhere in there is (1) the government taking care of anyone, (2) God taxing the rich to pay for the food, and (3) nowhere in there is there any suggestion that this was the perfect example of societal responsibility for the individual . Indeed, I see the opposite. I see God’s responsibility as 100% and societal (government) responsibility 0%.

In military terms I'd guess you could say I was responding with his choice of weapons. In military terms, you might want to ensure you know how to PROPERLY use the weapon you choose.

If this is a "Christian (me) vs non-Christian (??you???)" debate, then the discussion probably needs to end here as debate regarding biblical passages would be drawn out indefinitely without any productive goal in sight for either of us (and certainly not for the rest of this board).
Kelvin

Ozarker · Sep 8, 2002

I was responding with the accurate observation about his god being much more of a leftist than a rightist.

The only real problem with that is that you are wrong. God's wants people to good works and help the poor because it is the right thing to do. He never mentions having government or any other controlling group force people. It is about free will, not the tax collector. There is nothing "free will" associated with leftists. Only government control.

Ozarker · Sep 8, 2002

Nothing's up. I was just weighing in on the issue and thought of a better question than the "extremist right wing" question". I know you didn't mention Jesus or religion.

I hope it didn't appear that I was attacking you because that was not my intent.

bgott · Sep 9, 2002

Go ahead and post the detailed response. I, for one, am interested in the debate even though I'm not taking part. As far as the the debate being too far off topic, trust me, the moderators will let you know if it goes too far.

wroughtn_harv · Sep 9, 2002

Morning Kelvin, Yesterday was a wonderful day of nothing after weeks of pressure. Nothing can really be something. But like a candy bar you sure as heck don't want too much of it at one sitting. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Comment #1: I don't believe I ever espoused such a thing. [EDITED (added) Comment: I did not imply nor intend to imply any relationship between God and the government. However, I believe that when our government was created the constitution and laws of the time were heavily influenced by the bible and God's guidance, and our country did just fine until the government thought it no longer needed God.

I find your comment confusing. You don't want to imply a link between God and government but our nation was better when God and government were hand in hand?

A couple of questions. BTW I think this discussion can be something interesting and still be concise if we stick to questions and answers. We're both quite familiar with all the fringe stuff so basic questions and answers will probably do just fine.

1. I would like you to define if you can just when our government was doing so fine with God in it. I'm sure that with your statement you had a period of time in mind. If you could give me that period of time and maybe a little description as to why that period was so wonderful.

2. If you can I would like a short summary of the advantages of having the christian perspective in government.

Comment #2: Which god do you worship?

None that I'm aware of but of course I guess some could find an angle of a dangle to suggest there's one out there that I follow.

I was raised pentecostal and in my teens was the kid that carried the Scoffield Bible to school without there being any controversy. I have read the good book cover to cover at least once just to say I did it but to be honest I used to spend hours and hours studying it.

I have been an atheist or secular humanist if it goes down easier since I was seventeen. I'm now fifty four.

If this is a "Christian (me) vs non-Christian (??you???)" debate, then the discussion probably needs to end here as debate regarding biblical passages would be drawn out indefinitely without any productive goal in sight for either of us (and certainly not for the rest of this board). 

I have to disagree about the conversation being fruitless. I've had many of these discussions in real time. Some of my best friends in real life are very religious people. One of them who lurks here occasionally is very close and he's an ordained Baptist minister. He tells me just about every time we see each other that he's praying for me and that I am on his church's prayer list. Another is a very devout Sikh and then I have some Islamic friends too. We all have these discussions and we're still friends. So I don't see where ours, yours and mine, should be a source of conflict.

Besides that the subject and our positions are prominant in the news and on people's minds these days. It should be fun.

If the board and or you feel this conversation is not appropriate then I will understand. I won't appreciate the position but I will understand.