Propane shortage

[Coyote machine]

I'm going out on a frozen solid limb here to say the person who mentioned living in several houses over the last number of years, (from Boston) may have had an earlier radiant heat system that may not have functioned very well. There have been many improvements over the years, and radiant is a much more quiet, draft free, constant even temp capable system than just about anything else.

As to infloor above the subfloor install in a radiant track subfloor, we have bamboo floors, which are neither hardwood or softwood. They are a shredded and compressed sustainable and renewable grass that when pressed under 250,000 lbs. of pressure end up being 5x stronger than steel, and virtually indestructible. We have two labs and a cat, and not one scratch since 2009. Our kitchen/dining room is 30x30' with kitchen floor porcelain and the dining room and rest of the 1st floor the bamboo. We walk the floors barefoot with outside temps at -20F and t-stat at 64-65*.

Here's a link showing and describing the quik-track material that screws int conventional subfloor.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Quik-Trak-Radiant-Heat-System-819000

One question for those using LP gas. Isn't LP supposed to contain more BTUs than propane? Or do I have it backwards, or am I confusing it with dino oil?

TIA,

CM

 

[aczlan]

One question for those using LP gas. Isn't LP supposed to contain more BTUs than propane? Or do I have it backwards, or am I confusing it with dino oil?

LP is short for Liquid Propane, so they are the same and it has more BTUs/cubic foot then Natural Gas.


Aaron Z

 

[batwing]

One thing worth noting is Europe with real high fuel cost have no or very little forced air heat.
Ron

 

[batwing]

The old radiant heat used a lot of cast iron and black pipe, over the years it gets build up with minerals that restrict water flow.
This is what we put in our house. Types of Staple-Up Radiant Heating Systems
Single tube run between the joists with continuous transfer plate coverage. This works very well for us.
Ron

 

[tractchores]

One thing worth noting is Europe with real high fuel cost have no or very little forced air heat.
Ron

Not sure if that is due to efficiency or more due to space & age of housing. Old houses weren't built with ducts and adding them after the fact is a SERIOUS pain. Ducts also take up a fair amount of space, so in smaller SQ FT dwellings there's an advantage to not having to give up space for wider walls / ceilings / floors to accommodate ducts. It'd be interesting to know if there's an efficiency difference. I own both hot water (older building) and forced hot air systems and haven't noted much of a difference in terms of cost, but its tough to compare as they are in different buildings.

 

[dave1949]

Not sure if that is due to efficiency or more due to space & age of housing. Old houses weren't built with ducts and adding them after the fact is a SERIOUS pain. Ducts also take up a fair amount of space, so in smaller SQ FT dwellings there's an advantage to not having to give up space for wider walls / ceilings / floors to accommodate ducts. It'd be interesting to know if there's an efficiency difference. I own both hot water (older building) and forced hot air systems and haven't noted much of a difference in terms of cost, but its tough to compare as they are in different buildings.

Hot water, thin-wall steel radiators with oil fired boilers were pretty much the norm where I lived in Germany regardless of the age of the house. Each radiator had a thermostat (temperature sensing spring type) to regulate the flow. As long as the radiators are bled now and then to get the air out of them, they work well. Certainly piping would be easier to retrofit than ductwork, especially given the amount of all masonry construction in walls and floors there.

Many rural/small village homes used wood heat to reduce the heating oil consumption. I would guess there are many oil to wood pellet boiler conversions going on lately.

 

[batwing]

We have a log home with a bedroom up stairs along with a loft, with radiant heat (that does not heat the air) the loft is not as warm as the main floor.

 

[ultrarunner]

One thing worth noting is Europe with real high fuel cost have no or very little forced air heat.
Ron

Yes... spent a lot of time in Germany, Austria and Switzerland and never encountered anyone with forced air... ever.

Most of the homes were masonary and massive walls... a few were timbered... much easier to run a small pipe than ducts.

Also, never encountered a home that was cold... unlike living here in California!

 

[LD1]

Propane Gas Delivered to Your Home at Wholesale Cost

500 gal. tank $700.
1000 gal tank $1800

I would have thought the 1000 gallon tank would have been a little cheaper than a pair of 500's. At those prices, I would take the pair.

LP is short for Liquid Propane, so they are the same and it has more BTUs/cubic foot then Natural Gas.


Aaron Z

But per BTU, natural gas is a good bit cheaper. At least for now. Remember when diesel was cheaper than gas....

 

[aczlan]

But per BTU, natural gas is a good bit cheaper. At least for now. Remember when diesel was cheaper than gas....

Yep. If we could get NG, we would have it.

Aaron Z

 

[AMD]

Our tanks were filled yesterday but the slip left behind didn't have any pricing detail this time... scary! It just showed us how many liters it took to fill the tanks. The only good was that despite the cold spells we've been having our usage was down from last month thanks to using the wood stove more frequently.

 

[LD1]

Yep. If we could get NG, we would have it.

Aaron Z

Ditto

 

[sweettractors]

No propane in Elizabethtown, Ky if your tank has more than 30% showing on the guage and if below 30% only 200 gallons. Ken Sweet

 

[wmonroe]

I haven't called as I won't need any till summer but this is the first I've heard of the shortage. Is there normally a shortage during the winter? Does the price come back to normal during the summer?

 

[k0ua]

I haven't called as I won't need any till summer but this is the first I've heard of the shortage. Is there normally a shortage during the winter? Does the price come back to normal during the summer?

I have not seen anything like this.. Normally the price goes up in the winter, but nothing like this..gouging. and skyrocketing cost.

 

[SandburRanch]

We seem to have plenty to export.

If we look at some export numbers we can readily see the U.S. weather isn't the total problem but we don't hear that on the news report for fear of stepping on toes.

The export in October from 2012 - 2013 increased from 189 thousand barrels / day to 408 thousand barrels / day. At the end of the report period we see a lag of at least a couple of months + so we can only estimate what those numbers are at present.

Natural Gas and Petroleum Navigator Error Page

 

[Bob77064]

We seem to have plenty to export.

If we look at some export numbers we can readily see the U.S. weather isn't the total problem but we don't hear that on the news report for fear of stepping on toes.

The export in October from 2012 - 2013 increased from 189 thousand barrels / day to 408 thousand barrels / day. At the end of the report period we see a lag of at least a couple of months + so we can only estimate what those numbers are at present.

Natural Gas and Petroleum Navigator Error Page

We also have lots of gasoline to export, gasoline exports have gone up the past few years.

 

[Coyote machine]

LP is short for Liquid Propane, so they are the same and it has more BTUs/cubic foot then Natural Gas.


Aaron Z

Dang!:duh: I'm so used to using LP for my use of propane; I meant to ask about any BTU differences between LP and NG!
So, LP is more BTUs/buck*?!

* technical term meaning: moola, dinero, greenbacks, cashola, dough....

 

[JD 4520]

So, LP is more BTUs/buck*?!

Not exactly. LP is more BTUs than NGO per cubic foot. Price is a separate calculation.

 

[aczlan]

So, LP is more BTUs/buck*?!

Not usually. Here is a comparison showing the calculations:

Form of Energy - Units to obtain one million BTU - Price per unit - Cost per Million BTU
Natural Gas - 10 Therms - $0.93 (Heat Only Rate) - $9.30
Natural Gas - 10 Therms - $0.83 (Year Round Rate) - $8.30
Kerosene - 7.4 Gallons - $3.75 - $27.75
Propane Gas (LP) - 11 Gallons - $2.50 - $27.50
Electricity - 293 KWH - $0.085 - $24.91

Aaron Z