Ford 1715 PTO Clutch Adjusment -- Help

[joe12185]

I rinsed the parts in some k-1 kerosene, the bearings seem perfect, however when I rinsed the sprags very fine metal chips came out, I tried to capture them in the sunlight. I also wiped the outer race out with a towel and the towel was shiny when I was done, I am not sure if this is a indicator of wear of the sprags, outer race or inner race or all 3. I am wondering if the fine metal shavings were causing the orc to slip when it was immersed in oil? As I stated earlier in the thread the orc seems fine when not in oil, however as soon as I fill the rear end with fluid the pto does not work correctly. I am curious what your take is on this, and do you think this is the source of my problems?

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe, can you put the orc in a vice sandwiched between tow pieces of wood facing up. Can you then fill the inside full of oil and then try to rotate the inner race. it should turn in one direction and not on the opposite, that might give us some clue.

I there a retaining snap ring inside outer race of ORC for further dis assembly. I can not see the metal shaving is picked up from the bottom of the diffy housing to the inside of ORC. I wondered the grab teeth (don;t know what they are called) are rounded off.

JC,


Edit . just notcied you broke a part the ORC. I take my question above back. we'll go back to review the pics closely.

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

I'm bamboozled sitting in my chair, can you see tell tale sign of metal eroding from the sprags. Can see by hand if the the sprags makes interference with the outer race? Can the sprag move in and out by centrifugal force to grab. Everythig looks so pristine. I wish I could have something more solid to offer.

Jc,

 

[JC-jetro]

This is a picture of the orc disassembled, there is some discoloration on the sprags, looks to me like rust? In the third picture you can see the inside of the outer race, and the places where the additional bearings go.

On the first pic of the clutch, can you hold the orc clutch by hand and use the splined shaft from orc and insert it in the sprag clutch, then can you observe what happens when you turn splind shaft cw or CCW? what happens to sprags? do they move in and out? any play there?

JC,

 

[joe12185]

If you expand my picture of the sprags in the black tub of kerosene then zoom in you can see the glint on the metal shavings in the light, and now that I think about it I bet the fluid I changed last year had the same metal in it and that was why it was a kind of sparkly grey color. On the shop towel is in the first picture from post #51 you can see what a quick wipe of the inside of the outer race turned up, expand the picture and zoom in you will see the shine of metal shavings. I think that there must be some wear on either the inner of outer race, I have yet to inspect the inner race, I bet if I just replace everything in these pictures it will fix the problem. I bet that the inner race has worn to the point that when the pto spins at operating speed the sprags cannot grip it firmly enough and the pto looses power. the bearings are pressed on the inner race I need to be able to pull one of them off without damaging it to inspect the inner race, then I can measure the races with a caliper and see if they are out of spec, provided I can find the dimensions somewhere. I will post a picture of what I find when I get that bearing off.

 

[joe12185]

I reassembled the orc after cleaning with kero, placed the outer race shaft in a vise tightly, put the countershaft in it and filled it with the fluid that came out of the tractor. I grabbed the countershaft with a rag over the gear that drives the pto shaft with both hands and it functioned correctly, slipped in one direction and locked up in the other, I was not able to get it to slip, only able to twist the orc outer race in the vise. I am considering cleaning out the transmission really good with diesel to wash out all the sludge in the bottom and reassembling the tractor with new fluid and hyd. filter to test the pto and see if cleaning the orc out fixed the problem. as far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with the orc so reassemble and test, if the issue isn't fixed look somewhere else because we know it is not the orc. Thoughts?

 

[JC-jetro]

I have to come up with the same conclusion you have Joe, like I thought being immersed in oil should not effect the orc and it appears it work like it should after the vise test. The only things I can think off;

1- somehow the sliding gear jumps off and the pto handle stays in the same spot with detent mechanism engaged, How? Hve no idea. On the pto gear engagement fork (sliding gear), do you a pin that keeps fork from sliding on the shaft? usually the hollow pin has a twited wire going thru the hole and wrapped around the shaft to keep it from coming apart, did you see that?

2- Again it might indicate a clutch slippage, let say for locomation you need a certain amount of torque. if clutch plate is worn out or throwout bearing is riding on pressure plate fingers then you might not full torque available. Now if you combine torque needed for pto depending implement type plus torque for locomotion might be bigger for or clutch can handle causing slippage. Tiller for sures take a bunch of torque.

3- did the implement you used have sli clutch or shear pin, with slip clutch it may be slipping there. I think you said that you actually observe final pto shaft to slow down and then come to stop.

It would be curious if you put it all together and it starts working without problem and not ever know why !!

JC,

I reassembled the orc after cleaning with kero, placed the outer race shaft in a vise tightly, put the countershaft in it and filled it with the fluid that came out of the tractor. I grabbed the countershaft with a rag over the gear that drives the pto shaft with both hands and it functioned correctly, slipped in one direction and locked up in the other, I was not able to get it to slip, only able to twist the orc outer race in the vise. I am considering cleaning out the transmission really good with diesel to wash out all the sludge in the bottom and reassembling the tractor with new fluid and hyd. filter to test the pto and see if cleaning the orc out fixed the problem. as far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with the orc so reassemble and test, if the issue isn't fixed look somewhere else because we know it is not the orc. Thoughts?

 

[joe12185]

I have made plans with my bud to reassemble the tractor next saturday to the point where we can fill it with fluid and test the pto, clutch slippage unlikely because the pto did not work correctly even when not hooked to an implement. The skiding gear is attached solidly to the linkage, I do not see a wire, but the gear won't move if the linkage is not moved. I have watched the pto stop while the tractor was still in motion and there was nothing that changed bout how the tractor was running to let me know that the brush hod was no longer turning. I'm going to get the exact fluid from the dealer and all the gaskets during the week this week. If the pto works when I put it back together I am going to say it was a combinaton of the old fluid, water and the metal flakes that I cleaned out. After cleaning the orc and bearings with kero, I have reinstalled them into the case and rinsed the whole thing out with diesel to get rid of the remaining sludge that was in the bottom of the case and transmission. The brush hog is not equipped with a slip clutch, only a shear pin. Do you know if there is a hyd filter that I can get from napa or another auto parts store that will work for my tractor?

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

I have changed min hyd fluid once and did not use NH OEM oil. They all claim to be nh-134 compatible and I don't know enough chemistry to verify it on my own. I bought quarts of OEM from NH dealer and it was not prohibitively expensive. I think you should eliminate oil problem possibility going to OEM oil.

JC,

 

[joe12185]

Exactly my thinking. I think the cost is about an extra 30$ to go with the NH fluid at this point that is nothing in my book. I read a different thread on here that was explaining the difference between OEM and universal fluid, the universal fluid has a lot more additives in it to cover all the applications it says it can, the OEM only has the additives specified by the manufacturer, so the thought is all that extra stuff in the universal fluid may be causing the issue.