Roads better or worse in your state?

[dave1949]

Dave: Basically the substantial majority of the roads in this country have as their primary function property access, and it seems quite reasonable that property taxes should be used to fund these roads. The roads whose primary function is through traffic are funded by the user fees. I don't think there is much other supplementing.

That sounds reasonable up to a point but it also has built-in inequities. Property taxes are by their nature means-tested; if you cannot afford the taxes, you don't continue to own the property.

The owner of a low tax value property gets the same road access as a high tax value property, even though their contributions to road maintenance are not equal and their level and type of road use is not even considered.

Someone with a nice house on five acres could easily be paying more property tax than the owner of 100 acres of timber next door pays. The homeowner will never have a reason to run 100K lb trucks on the road.

Those types of comparisons lead me to think that property taxes going to roads is fine to an extent, but there is some percentage beyond which things stop making sense. That would never be the case with tolls and fuel taxes; you use you pay.

 

[DeereMann]

I think JDgreen227 & dave1949 are on to more equitable funding methods -

Aside from weather, it is proven that road wear is caused by vehicle axle weight, and with frequency (mileage). So the majority of funding should be based on the 'user' tax of vehicle registration by GCVR & mileage.

Then, to address the issue of access, some smaller portion of the total funding should be from property tax.

The old fuel sales tax model is flawed - it was an attempt to keep total taxation for any one user low, but now is skewed due to the smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles of today. Which, by the way, the younger generations are driving less also.

And diesel fuel taxes should be lowered for automotive pumps only - why should diesel autos pay the same high tax an 80,000 pound GCVWR semi truck does?

 

[paulharvey]

When I started work as an engineering inspector (road construction) for Marion County FL we had some 55 mph roads you wouldn't believe. Cr318 and Cr42 both had outside wheel ruts upto 3-4" deep in the asphalt. These were both heavily traveled roads with a lot of truck traffic. We in my 4.5 years fixed probably the worst 5 roads, but there is a permanent back log. Now I work for the city in the next county north, and the city/county has a $512 Million dollar back log to just keep what they have in repair (no capacity upgrades). It's a college town, and they waste there tax money on green projects, transit buses, homeless health care, and other "feel good" crap rather than repairing the roads. $512M in a medium sized county of 250,000 people and a fairly high income level ($41,473 average for people working).


One upcoming project is to turn a 4 lane that is at capacity into a 2 lane with extra bike lanes and a landscaped median.... cause that will magically help with traffic capacity....

 

[dave1949]

When I started work as an engineering inspector (road construction) for Marion County FL we had some 55 mph roads you wouldn't believe. Cr318 and Cr42 both had outside wheel ruts upto 3-4" deep in the asphalt. These were both heavily traveled roads with a lot of truck traffic. We in my 4.5 years fixed probably the worst 5 roads, but there is a permanent back log. Now I work for the city in the next county north, and the city/county has a $512 Million dollar back log to just keep what they have in repair (no capacity upgrades). It's a college town, and they waste there tax money on green projects, transit buses, homeless health care, and other "feel good" crap rather than repairing the roads. $512M in a medium sized county of 250,000 people and a fairly high income level ($41,473 average for people working).


One upcoming project is to turn a 4 lane that is at capacity into a 2 lane with extra bike lanes and a landscaped median.... cause that will magically help with traffic capacity....

Paul, you sound bitter. :laughing:

From the inside of the road business, I'm sure you realize that some projects are meant to discourage driving. That's a many-sided issue, but the consensus here seems to be that most places are reluctant or just plain unwilling to provide road funding at the needed levels to maintain the roads we already have, let alone add to the burden with new roads.

At some point, maybe we have hit it already, continuing with more and more roads to serve more and more personal vehicle traffic hits a wall. It just isn't a viable solution unless we are willing to open our wallets very wide.

Unfortunately, we have built towns and cities with the assumption that there will always be an affordable road network available. I don't know the answers, but it seems obvious that we either pay up or find other ways.

 

[300UGUY]

This is a list by state of what percentage of road expenditures are paid for by state and local government fuel taxes and tolls.
Gasoline Taxes and Tolls Pay for Only a Third of State & Local Road Spending | Tax Foundation

Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid.


This table adds federal fuel taxes to the state and local figures in the first table.
Road Spending by State Funded by User Taxes and Fees, Including Federal Gas Tax Revenues | Tax Foundation

If these amounts are correct, no state is using road fees and taxes for other purposes; they are supplementing road expenditures from general funds by 50% on a national average.

Dave, you always seem to have a way injecting facts into a conversation. Very well played, my man.

 

[300UGUY]

In our state, it seems the politicians are interested in cutting income tax rates, fixing the roads or anything else, is way down the list.

 

[JDgreen227]

In our state, it seems the politicians are interested in cutting income tax rates, fixing the roads or anything else, is way down the list.

Oh yes, they want the taxpayers to feel that a huge $30 state income tax reduction per person will make the plan for gas tax hikes and doubling registration fees seem affordable. "We just gave you an income tax cut, so now you can afford a higher gas tax and a doubling of registration fees...." Yeah. Doubling my registration fees cost another $260 per year. What a farce.

 

[dave1949]

Oh yes, they want the taxpayers to feel that a huge $30 state income tax reduction per person will make the plan for gas tax hikes and doubling registration fees seem affordable. "We just gave you an income tax cut, so now you can afford a higher gas tax and a doubling of registration fees...." Yeah. Doubling my registration fees cost another $260 per year. What a farce.

Not to mention that bad roads cause higher vehicle maintenance costs and shorter vehicle lifetimes. Probably lead to more accidents too. It's hard to enjoy a tax cut while bouncing into town knowing your car is getting beat to death.

 

[Rustyiron]

Not to mention that bad roads cause higher vehicle maintenance costs and shorter vehicle lifetimes. Probably lead to more accidents too. It's hard to enjoy a tax cut while bouncing into town knowing your car is getting beat to death.

I tell folks that the age of a vehicle in Maine is like "dog years". (1=7) At 28 years, (4 calender years) you start thinking about having to "put it down".:laughing:

 

[dirt ditch]

Back in the 1980's Kansas figured out that it is cheaper to maintain a good road than it is to fix a poor road. We now have one of the best highway systems in the nation today.

I remember back in the early 2000's we took a driving trip to Denver. Heading west on I 70 in eastern Colorado we were going up a small hill and at the top of the hill were 2 big yellow signs that read DIP. Sure enough just over the crest of the hill was a BIG dip across both lanes that almost got our Jeep airborne. Never saw anything like it.